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Interesting. How do you know she had no naivete or was not
silly about matters of the heart. Lots of accomplished, intelligent
people do the silliest things when is comes to love (and hate).
Bill Clinton, a very accomplished and inteligent person with many
admirable qualities seems to have been like the farmer, outstanding
in his field.

P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: Of "awful daring"


> Emily Hale was a very accomplished, intelligent woman who was also a New
> England lady in 1911 when she and TSE met--well before the married Viv.
> When they started writing and seeing each other, Viv had been put in an
> institution.  Hale did not just meet a married man and "see" him.  There
> is no analogy at all.  She was not remotely silly or naive.
>
> Nancy
>
>
> >>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 7:24 PM >>>
> As far as love and marriage go, it is best to do what is best for one's
>
> self, as to do otherwise would end up being non-beneficial for all
> involved.
> Perhaps he may have been more sensitive to their feelings, but I  cannot
> help
> thinking that Emily Hale was a very silly woman, believing that he
> after all
> those years he would finally marry her.   I remember that my  mother had
> a pretty
> friend who sometimes hung around the house when I was a  young teenager,
> 14
> or 15 years of age.  Her friend was a bit younger  than herself.  Her
> name was
> Annette.  Annette was probably in her  early 30's at the time. Annette,
> I
> remember, showed up frequently at the house  to chat with my mother.
> They would
> always stop talking when I entered the  room.  My older sister, six
> years
> older, informed me a couple of years  later (when I was a little more
> knowledgeable
> about the world) that Annette  had been seeing a married man for several
>
> years and that our mother had been  trying to persuade her for years to
> discontinue her relationship with this man,  but Annette truly believed
> that this man
> would one day leave his wife and marry  her. I believe that Annette was
> 38 when
> she finally left this man, after 10  years.  She finally realized that
> he
> would never leave his wife and  marry her.  Several months or so after,
> Annette
> met another man and  she fell in love with him, and they married.  I
> don't know
> if they lived  happily ever after, for Annette and her husband moved
> away and
> her and my mom I  think lost touch after a few years.  Emily Hale, I
> believe,
> lacked  self-esteem, self-sufficiency and common sense if she really
> waited
> for Elliot  for 30 years.  Even my mom's pretty little friend, Annette,
> grew up
> after  10 years.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kate
>
>
> In a message dated 6/14/2007 3:42:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> I think that what was being addressed was not his comfort but Emily's.
> No doubt he did what he felt was best for  himself.
> Nancy
>
> >>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>  06/14/07 11:10 AM >>>
> No doubt, he was flattered by the attention  and the declarations of
> love
> and devotion from these woman, as unlike Vivian,  he was not attractive,
> outgoing, flirtatious and didn't attract the attention  of women in
> general.  Who can say whether or not he felt anything deeper  than
> friendship for them. Then, add into the mix the question of  his
> homosexuality.  Obviously, the disastrous marriage to Vivian may  have
> made him a bit hesitant to propose marriage again to anybody.  By  the
> time he met Valerie, he was older and he obviously trusted her  greatly
> and found comfort in their  relationship.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kate
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original  Message-----
> From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
> To:  [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 7:50 am
> Subject: Re: Of "awful  daring"
>
>
>
> Many people on this list find it a constant need to  idealize him and
> peak of how great he was, etc.  Yet that never seems to  trouble you.
> f praising him is valid, critiqueing him is valid.  You  can't have it
> oth ways.  The alternative is to focus on the poetry  itself, but that
> ever seems the limit.
> Nancy
> >>> Peter  Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 4:56 AM >>>
> find  this need to judge him at all very curious.
> oap operas and tabloid journalism  never interested me.
> eter
> ---- Original Message ----- 
> rom: "Nancy  Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
> o: <[log in to unmask]>
> ent:  Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:18 AM
> ubject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
> It's  Emily, not Nancy Hale and Mary Trevelyan.  And it is not hearsay.
> It is  all documented.  See Gordon.  And 30 years of letters after  a
> ing
> and years of mutual visiting leaves a lot more than time enough to  be
> "up front."
> Nancy
>
> >>> Peter Montgomery  <[log in to unmask]> 06/13/07 3:15 AM >>>
> I can see that  it looks very unfair to Nancy Hale and Mary Trevalyn,
> but it seems for once  he knew where his happiness really lay and he
> chose to go there. It would  have been wrong for him to marry either
> of them ifhe knew it wouldn't work  for him. i can believe he should
> ave
> been more up front about it with  Nancy Hale.
>
> It is one thing to think you want to do something when you  can't,
> and quite another to continue wanting it when you actually can do  it.
> There is a radical change in prespective.
>
> I find this need to  judge him on the basis of hear say rather curious.
>
> Peter
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Diana  Manister
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday,  June 12, 2007 6:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Of "awful  daring"
>
>
> Brian, it seems to me that Eliot's leaving Nancy  Hale in America,
> hen
> she and all their acquaintances assumed they would  marry, was a
> owerful
> source of guilt for him all of his life. This reads  like a soap opera,
> but even a genius is tormented by relationships. It seems  almost as if
> his treatment of Hale had a tinge of sadism to it, so cruelly  was she
> tossed aside twice in favor of other women. Repenting his  first
> arriage
> may have included regret over having chosen Viv over Nancy.  In any
> event, he certainly was very aware of his ill-treatment of a woman  who
> loved him all of her life. I think the hyacinth girl has a Nancy  Hale
> component, and the woman in the following poem  especially:
>
> La Figlia Che Piange (The Weeping  Girl)
>
> "...So I would have had him leave,
> So  I would have had her stand and grieve,
> So he would have  left         10
> As the soul leaves the  body torn and bruised,
> As the mind deserts the body it has  used.
> I should find
> Some way incomparably light  and deft,
> Some way we both should understand,     15
> Simple and faithless as a smile and shake  of the hand.
>
> She turned away, but with the autumn  weather
> Compelled my imagination many days,
> Many  days and many hours:
> Her hair over her arms and her arms full of  flowers.         20
> And I wonder how  they should have been together!
> I should have lost a gesture and  a pose.
> Sometimes these cogitations still amaze
> The troubled midnight and the noon's repose.  "
>
> Hale  had a breakdown and was hospitalized after one of Eliot's
> marriages, I forget  which. After Vivienne's death, it seemed they
> ould
> marry after all, but he  again reneged saying "It's too late!" Mary
> Trevelyan in England asked him  several times to marry her after Viv
> died, but he said he had an attachment  to a woman in America, who
> ould
> only have been Nancy Hale. They saw each  other over the years, when
> Eliot was in America and when she came to England.  She accompanied him
> on his visit to places mentioned in 4Qs, and I sometimes  think the
> oor
> not entered and the unseen laughing children refer at least  partly to
> his not having married Hale and had a family.
>
> The events may be public, but guilt is not written in  our
> bituaries.
> Diana
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
>
> From:  "O'Sullivan, Brian P"  <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot  Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
> To:   [log in to unmask]
> Subject:  Re: Of "awful  daring"
> Date:  Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:48:23  -0400
> I've always imagined that if the "daring moment"  had a
> iographical
> referent, it was something less public and documentable  than what we
> know of his marriage or conversion or change of  national
> affiliation--something "not to be found in our  obituaries."
>
> Brian
>
> Brian  O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor of  Englishh
> Director of the Writing Center
> Montgomery Hall 50
> 18952 E. Fisher  Rd.
> St. Mary's College of Maryland
> St. Mary's City, Maryland
> 20686
> 240-895-4242
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: T. S. Eliot  Discussion forum. on behalf of Kate Troy
> Sent: Mon  6/11/2007 4:07 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
>
> These  lines may not have referred to his marriage.  Perhaps he
> eant
> leaving  America and living his life as a British citizen.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nancy Gish
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sun, 10 Jun  2007 1:29 pm
> Subject: Re: Off "awful  daring"
>
>
> It need not be either approval or  disapproval but simply fact.  It
> was
> Eliot, after  all, who said that it was better to do evil than to
> o
> nothing because "at least we exist."  (Or it may be "at least  we
> re
> alive"--I just read it but it's not right  here.)  In any case,
> daring
> moments are not very  present in any of the poetry, and when they
> re
> possible, whoever is speaking tends to fail.
>
> It was  not much of a marriage for Viv either, and it was she whose
> life
> never recovered.  He seems to have sustained guilt over that  but
> ot
> to
> have acted on his guilt.
> Nancy
>
> >>> cr mittal  <[log in to unmask]> 06/10/07 1:12 PM >>>
> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The awful daring of a moment's surrender
> Which an age of prudence can never retract
>
> CR: I have always seen this as Eliot's way of saying "Marry  in
> haste,
> repent at leisure." Not believing in  divorce, his sudden to
> decision
> to
> marry Viv left him one of their lifetimes in which to  repent.
> Diana
>
>
> I don't think so, Diana.  There's a note of approval, not
> disapproval,
> to the "awful daring of a moment's surrender" in
>
> The awful daring of a moment's surrender
> Which an age of prudence can never retract
> // By  this, and this only, we have existed //
>
> Regards,
>
> CR
>
>
>
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