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Are you sugesting he deliberately set out to hurt Emily?

P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: {Disarmed} Re: Of "awful daring"


> I think that what was being addressed was not his comfort but Emily's.
> No doubt he did what he felt was best for himself.
> Nancy
>
> >>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 11:10 AM >>>
> No doubt, he was flattered by the attention and the declarations of love
> and devotion from these woman, as unlike Vivian, he was not attractive,
> outgoing, flirtatious and didn't attact the attention of women in
> general.  Who can say whether or not he felt anything deeper than
> friendship for them. Then, add into the mix the question of his
> homosexuality.  Obviously, the disastrous marriage to Vivian may have
> made him a bit hesitant to propose marriage again to anybody.  By the
> time he met Valerie, he was older and he obviously trusted her greatly
> and found comfort in their relationship.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kate
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 7:50 am
> Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
>
>
> Many people on this list find it a constant need to idealize him and
> peak of how great he was, etc.  Yet that never seems to trouble you.
> f praising him is valid, critiqueing him is valid.  You can't have it
> oth ways.  The alternative is to focus on the poetry itself, but that
> ever seems the limit.
> Nancy
> >>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 4:56 AM >>>
>  find this need to judge him at all very curious.
> oap operas and tabloid journalism never interested me.
> eter
> ---- Original Message ----- 
> rom: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
> o: <[log in to unmask]>
> ent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:18 AM
> ubject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
>  It's Emily, not Nancy Hale and Mary Trevelyan.  And it is not hearsay.
>  It is all documented.  See Gordon.  And 30 years of letters after a
> ing
>  and years of mutual visiting leaves a lot more than time enough to be
>  "up front."
>  Nancy
>
>  >>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/13/07 3:15 AM >>>
>  I can see that it looks very unfair to Nancy Hale and Mary Trevalyn,
>  but it seems for once he knew where his happiness really lay and he
>  chose to go there. It would have been wrong for him to marry either
>  of them ifhe knew it wouldn't work for him. i can believe he should
> ave
>  been more up front about it with Nancy Hale.
>
>  It is one thing to think you want to do something when you can't,
>  and quite another to continue wanting it when you actually can do it.
>  There is a radical change in prespective.
>
>  I find this need to judge him on the basis of hear say rather curious.
>
>  Peter
>    ----- Original Message ----- 
>    From: Diana Manister
>    To: [log in to unmask]
>    Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:27 AM
>    Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
>
>    Brian, it seems to me that Eliot's leaving Nancy Hale in America,
> hen
>  she and all their acquaintances assumed they would marry, was a
> owerful
>  source of guilt for him all of his life. This reads like a soap opera,
>  but even a genius is tormented by relationships. It seems almost as if
>  his treatment of Hale had a tinge of sadism to it, so cruelly was she
>  tossed aside twice in favor of other women. Repenting his first
> arriage
>  may have included regret over having chosen Viv over Nancy. In any
>  event, he certainly was very aware of his ill-treatment of a woman who
>  loved him all of her life. I think the hyacinth girl has a Nancy Hale
>  component, and the woman in the following poem especially:
>
>    La Figlia Che Piange (The Weeping Girl)
>
>    "...So I would have had him leave,
>    So I would have had her stand and grieve,
>    So he would have left         10
>    As the soul leaves the body torn and bruised,
>    As the mind deserts the body it has used.
>    I should find
>    Some way incomparably light and deft,
>    Some way we both should understand,         15
>    Simple and faithless as a smile and shake of the hand.
>
>    She turned away, but with the autumn weather
>    Compelled my imagination many days,
>    Many days and many hours:
>    Her hair over her arms and her arms full of flowers.         20
>    And I wonder how they should have been together!
>    I should have lost a gesture and a pose.
>    Sometimes these cogitations still amaze
>    The troubled midnight and the noon's repose.  "
>
>    Hale had a breakdown and was hospitalized after one of Eliot's
>  marriages, I forget which. After Vivienne's death, it seemed they
> ould
>  marry after all, but he again reneged saying "It's too late!" Mary
>  Trevelyan in England asked him several times to marry her after Viv
>  died, but he said he had an attachment to a woman in America, who
> ould
>  only have been Nancy Hale. They saw each other over the years, when
>  Eliot was in America and when she came to England. She accompanied him
>  on his visit to places mentioned in 4Qs, and I sometimes think the
> oor
>  not entered and the unseen laughing children refer at least partly to
>  his not having married Hale and had a family.
>
>    The events may be public, but guilt is not written in our
> bituaries.
>  Diana
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
>
>      From:  "O'Sullivan, Brian P" <[log in to unmask]>
>      Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
>      To:  [log in to unmask]
>      Subject:  Re: Of "awful daring"
>      Date:  Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:48:23 -0400
>      I've always imagined that if the "daring moment" had a
> iographical
>  referent, it was something less public and documentable than what we
>  know of his marriage or conversion or change of national
>  affiliation--something "not to be found in our obituaries."
>
>      Brian
>
>      Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>      Assistant Professor of Englishh
>      Director of the Writing Center
>      Montgomery Hall 50
>      18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>      St. Mary's College of Maryland
>      St. Mary's City, Maryland
>      20686
>      240-895-4242
>
>      ________________________________
>
>      From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. on behalf of Kate Troy
>      Sent: Mon 6/11/2007 4:07 PM
>      To: [log in to unmask]
>      Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
>
>      These lines may not have referred to his marriage.  Perhaps he
> eant
>  leaving America and living his life as a British citizen.
>
>
>      -----Original Message-----
>      From: Nancy Gish
>      To: [log in to unmask]
>      Sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 1:29 pm
>      Subject: Re: Off "awful daring"
>
>
>      It need not be either approval or disapproval but simply fact.  It
>  was
>      Eliot, after all, who said that it was better to do evil than to
> o
>      nothing because "at least we exist."  (Or it may be "at least we
> re
>      alive"--I just read it but it's not right here.)  In any case,
>  daring
>      moments are not very present in any of the poetry, and when they
> re
>      possible, whoever is speaking tends to fail.
>
>      It was not much of a marriage for Viv either, and it was she whose
>  life
>      never recovered.  He seems to have sustained guilt over that but
> ot
>  to
>      have acted on his guilt.
>      Nancy
>
>      >>> cr mittal <[log in to unmask]> 06/10/07 1:12 PM >>>
>      Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>               The awful daring of a moment's surrender
>         Which an age of prudence can never retract
>
>         CR: I have always seen this as Eliot's way of saying "Marry in
>  haste,
>         repent at leisure." Not believing in divorce, his sudden to
>  decision
>      to
>         marry Viv left him one of their lifetimes in which to repent.
>  Diana
>
>
>         I don't think so, Diana. There's a note of approval, not
>  disapproval,
>         to the "awful daring of a moment's surrender" in
>
>         The awful daring of a moment's surrender
>         Which an age of prudence can never retract
>         // By this, and this only, we have existed //
>
>         Regards,
>
>         CR
>
>
>
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