As I remember, Annette had a good job and received promotions, etc. She  
owned a nice home. Emily waited all of those years, instead of pursuing her  
happiness with a man who wanted to be with her.  I imagine that Emily used  to cry 
at Christmas and Thanksgiving and on her birthday, etc., just as  Annette used 
to do.
In a message dated 6/14/2007 7:40:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[log in to unmask] writes:

Emily  Hale was a very accomplished, intelligent woman who was also a New
England  lady in 1911 when she and TSE met--well before the married Viv. 
When they  started writing and seeing each other, Viv had been put in  an
institution.  Hale did not just meet a married man and "see"  him.  There
is no analogy at all.  She was not remotely silly or  naive. 


>>> Kate Troy  <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 7:24 PM >>>
As far as love and  marriage go, it is best to do what is best for one's 

self, as to do  otherwise would end up being non-beneficial for all 
Perhaps he may have been more sensitive to their feelings, but I   cannot
thinking that Emily Hale was a very silly woman, believing  that he 
after all 
those years he would finally marry her.    I remember that my  mother had
a pretty 
friend who sometimes hung  around the house when I was a  young teenager,
or 15 years of  age.  Her friend was a bit younger  than herself.  Her
name  was 
Annette.  Annette was probably in her  early 30's at the  time. Annette,
remember, showed up frequently at the house  to  chat with my mother. 
They would 
always stop talking when I entered  the  room.  My older sister, six
older, informed me a  couple of years  later (when I was a little more
about the world) that Annette  had been seeing a married man for  several

years and that our mother had been  trying to persuade her  for years to 
discontinue her relationship with this man,  but Annette  truly believed
that this man 
would one day leave his wife and  marry  her. I believe that Annette was
38 when 
she finally left  this man, after 10  years.  She finally realized that
would never leave his wife and  marry her.  Several months or so  after,
met another man and  she fell in love with him, and  they married.  I
don't know 
if they lived  happily ever  after, for Annette and her husband moved
away and 
her and my mom  I  think lost touch after a few years.  Emily Hale, I
lacked  self-esteem, self-sufficiency and common sense if she  really
for Elliot  for 30 years.  Even my mom's pretty  little friend, Annette,
grew up 
after  10  years.



In a message dated 6/14/2007  3:42:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[log in to unmask]  writes:

I think that what was being addressed was not his comfort but  Emily's.  
No doubt he did what he felt was best for   himself.

>>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>   06/14/07 11:10 AM >>>
No doubt, he was flattered by the  attention  and the declarations of
and devotion from these  woman, as unlike Vivian,  he was not attractive,
outgoing, flirtatious  and didn't attract the attention  of women in
general.  Who can  say whether or not he felt anything deeper  than
friendship for them.  Then, add into the mix the question of  his
homosexuality.   Obviously, the disastrous marriage to Vivian may  have
made him a bit  hesitant to propose marriage again to anybody.  By  the
time he  met Valerie, he was older and he obviously trusted her  greatly
and  found comfort in their   relationship.



-----Original   Message-----
From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
To:   [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 7:50 am
Subject: Re: Of  "awful  daring"

Many people on this list find it a  constant need to  idealize him and
peak of how great he was,  etc.  Yet that never seems to  trouble you. 
f praising him is  valid, critiqueing him is valid.  You  can't have it
oth  ways.  The alternative is to focus on the poetry  itself, but  that
ever seems the limit.
>>> Peter  Montgomery  <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 4:56 AM >>>
find   this need to judge him at all very curious.
oap operas and tabloid  journalism  never interested me.
---- Original Message -----  
rom: "Nancy  Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
o:  <[log in to unmask]>
ent:  Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:18  AM
ubject: Re: Of "awful daring"

It's  Emily, not Nancy Hale  and Mary Trevelyan.  And it is not hearsay.
It is  all  documented.  See Gordon.  And 30 years of letters after   a
and years of mutual visiting leaves a lot more than time enough  to  be
"up front."

>>> Peter Montgomery   <[log in to unmask]> 06/13/07 3:15 AM >>>
I can see  that  it looks very unfair to Nancy Hale and Mary Trevalyn,
but it  seems for once  he knew where his happiness really lay and he
chose to  go there. It would  have been wrong for him to marry either
of them  ifhe knew it wouldn't work  for him. i can believe he  should
been more up front about it with  Nancy Hale.

It  is one thing to think you want to do something when you  can't,
and  quite another to continue wanting it when you actually can do   it.
There is a radical change in prespective.

I find this need  to  judge him on the basis of hear say rather  curious.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Diana   Manister
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday,  June 12, 2007 6:27  AM
Subject: Re: Of "awful  daring"

Brian, it seems to me  that Eliot's leaving Nancy  Hale in America,
she and all their  acquaintances assumed they would  marry, was a
source of  guilt for him all of his life. This reads  like a soap opera,
but even  a genius is tormented by relationships. It seems  almost as if
his  treatment of Hale had a tinge of sadism to it, so cruelly  was  she
tossed aside twice in favor of other women. Repenting his   first
may have included regret over having chosen Viv over  Nancy.  In any
event, he certainly was very aware of his ill-treatment  of a woman  who
loved him all of her life. I think the hyacinth girl  has a Nancy  Hale
component, and the woman in the following poem   especially:

La Figlia Che Piange (The Weeping  Girl)

"...So  I would have had him leave,
So  I would have had her stand and  grieve,
So he would have  left          10
As the soul leaves the  body torn and bruised,
As the mind  deserts the body it has  used.
I should find
Some way incomparably  light  and deft,
Some way we both should understand,   15
Simple and faithless as a smile and shake  of the  hand.

She turned away, but with the autumn  weather
Compelled  my imagination many days,
Many  days and many hours:
Her hair over  her arms and her arms full of  flowers.          20
And I wonder how  they should have been together!
I should have  lost a gesture and  a pose.
Sometimes these cogitations still  amaze
The troubled midnight and the noon's repose.   "

Hale  had a breakdown and was hospitalized after one of  Eliot's
marriages, I forget  which. After Vivienne's death, it seemed  they
marry after all, but he  again reneged saying "It's too  late!" Mary
Trevelyan in England asked him  several times to marry her  after Viv
died, but he said he had an attachment  to a woman in  America, who
only have been Nancy Hale. They saw each  other  over the years, when
Eliot was in America and when she came to  England.  She accompanied him
on his visit to places mentioned in 4Qs,  and I sometimes  think the
not entered and the unseen laughing  children refer at least  partly to
his not having married Hale and had  a family.

The events may be public, but guilt is not written in   our


From:   "O'Sullivan, Brian P"  <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:   "T. S. Eliot  Discussion forum."  <[log in to unmask]>
To:    [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: Of "awful   daring"
Date:  Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:48:23  -0400
I've always  imagined that if the "daring moment"  had a
referent,  it was something less public and documentable  than what we
know of  his marriage or conversion or change of   national
affiliation--something "not to be found in our   obituaries."


Brian  O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
Assistant  Professor of  Englishh
Director of the Writing Center
Montgomery  Hall 50
18952 E. Fisher  Rd.
St. Mary's College of Maryland
St.  Mary's City,  Maryland


From:  T. S. Eliot  Discussion forum. on behalf of Kate Troy
Sent: Mon   6/11/2007 4:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Of "awful  daring"

These  lines may not have referred to his  marriage.  Perhaps he
leaving  America and living his  life as a British citizen.

-----Original Message-----
From:  Nancy Gish
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sun, 10 Jun  2007 1:29  pm
Subject: Re: Off "awful  daring"

It need not be either  approval or  disapproval but simply fact.  It
Eliot,  after  all, who said that it was better to do evil than  to
nothing because "at least we exist."  (Or it may be "at  least  we
alive"--I just read it but it's not right   here.)  In any case,
moments are not very  present in  any of the poetry, and when they
possible, whoever is speaking tends  to fail.

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