Emily Hale was a very accomplished, intelligent woman who was also a New
England lady in 1911 when she and TSE met--well before the married Viv. 
When they started writing and seeing each other, Viv had been put in an
institution.  Hale did not just meet a married man and "see" him.  There
is no analogy at all.  She was not remotely silly or naive. 


>>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 7:24 PM >>>
As far as love and marriage go, it is best to do what is best for one's 

self, as to do otherwise would end up being non-beneficial for all 
Perhaps he may have been more sensitive to their feelings, but I  cannot
thinking that Emily Hale was a very silly woman, believing that he 
after all 
those years he would finally marry her.   I remember that my  mother had
a pretty 
friend who sometimes hung around the house when I was a  young teenager,
or 15 years of age.  Her friend was a bit younger  than herself.  Her
name was 
Annette.  Annette was probably in her  early 30's at the time. Annette,
remember, showed up frequently at the house  to chat with my mother. 
They would 
always stop talking when I entered the  room.  My older sister, six
older, informed me a couple of years  later (when I was a little more
about the world) that Annette  had been seeing a married man for several

years and that our mother had been  trying to persuade her for years to 
discontinue her relationship with this man,  but Annette truly believed
that this man 
would one day leave his wife and marry  her. I believe that Annette was
38 when 
she finally left this man, after 10  years.  She finally realized that
would never leave his wife and  marry her.  Several months or so after,
met another man and  she fell in love with him, and they married.  I
don't know 
if they lived  happily ever after, for Annette and her husband moved
away and 
her and my mom I  think lost touch after a few years.  Emily Hale, I
lacked  self-esteem, self-sufficiency and common sense if she really
for Elliot  for 30 years.  Even my mom's pretty little friend, Annette,
grew up 
after  10 years.
In a message dated 6/14/2007 3:42:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[log in to unmask] writes:
I think that what was being addressed was not his comfort but Emily's.  
No doubt he did what he felt was best for  himself.

>>> Kate Troy <[log in to unmask]>  06/14/07 11:10 AM >>>
No doubt, he was flattered by the attention  and the declarations of
and devotion from these woman, as unlike Vivian,  he was not attractive,
outgoing, flirtatious and didn't attract the attention  of women in
general.  Who can say whether or not he felt anything deeper  than
friendship for them. Then, add into the mix the question of  his
homosexuality.  Obviously, the disastrous marriage to Vivian may  have
made him a bit hesitant to propose marriage again to anybody.  By  the
time he met Valerie, he was older and he obviously trusted her  greatly
and found comfort in their  relationship.



-----Original  Message-----
From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
To:  [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 7:50 am
Subject: Re: Of "awful  daring"

Many people on this list find it a constant need to  idealize him and
peak of how great he was, etc.  Yet that never seems to  trouble you. 
f praising him is valid, critiqueing him is valid.  You  can't have it
oth ways.  The alternative is to focus on the poetry  itself, but that
ever seems the limit.
>>> Peter  Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/14/07 4:56 AM >>>
find  this need to judge him at all very curious.
oap operas and tabloid journalism  never interested me.
---- Original Message ----- 
rom: "Nancy  Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
o: <[log in to unmask]>
ent:  Wednesday, June 13, 2007 5:18 AM
ubject: Re: Of "awful daring"

It's  Emily, not Nancy Hale and Mary Trevelyan.  And it is not hearsay.
It is  all documented.  See Gordon.  And 30 years of letters after  a
and years of mutual visiting leaves a lot more than time enough to  be
"up front."

>>> Peter Montgomery  <[log in to unmask]> 06/13/07 3:15 AM >>>
I can see that  it looks very unfair to Nancy Hale and Mary Trevalyn,
but it seems for once  he knew where his happiness really lay and he
chose to go there. It would  have been wrong for him to marry either
of them ifhe knew it wouldn't work  for him. i can believe he should
been more up front about it with  Nancy Hale.

It is one thing to think you want to do something when you  can't,
and quite another to continue wanting it when you actually can do  it.
There is a radical change in prespective.

I find this need to  judge him on the basis of hear say rather curious.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Diana  Manister
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday,  June 12, 2007 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: Of "awful  daring"

Brian, it seems to me that Eliot's leaving Nancy  Hale in America,
she and all their acquaintances assumed they would  marry, was a
source of guilt for him all of his life. This reads  like a soap opera,
but even a genius is tormented by relationships. It seems  almost as if
his treatment of Hale had a tinge of sadism to it, so cruelly  was she
tossed aside twice in favor of other women. Repenting his  first
may have included regret over having chosen Viv over Nancy.  In any
event, he certainly was very aware of his ill-treatment of a woman  who
loved him all of her life. I think the hyacinth girl has a Nancy  Hale
component, and the woman in the following poem  especially:

La Figlia Che Piange (The Weeping  Girl)

"...So I would have had him leave,
So  I would have had her stand and grieve,
So he would have  left         10
As the soul leaves the  body torn and bruised,
As the mind deserts the body it has  used.
I should find
Some way incomparably light  and deft,
Some way we both should understand,     15
Simple and faithless as a smile and shake  of the hand.

She turned away, but with the autumn  weather
Compelled my imagination many days,
Many  days and many hours:
Her hair over her arms and her arms full of  flowers.         20
And I wonder how  they should have been together!
I should have lost a gesture and  a pose.
Sometimes these cogitations still amaze
The troubled midnight and the noon's repose.  "

Hale  had a breakdown and was hospitalized after one of Eliot's
marriages, I forget  which. After Vivienne's death, it seemed they
marry after all, but he  again reneged saying "It's too late!" Mary
Trevelyan in England asked him  several times to marry her after Viv
died, but he said he had an attachment  to a woman in America, who
only have been Nancy Hale. They saw each  other over the years, when
Eliot was in America and when she came to England.  She accompanied him
on his visit to places mentioned in 4Qs, and I sometimes  think the
not entered and the unseen laughing children refer at least  partly to
his not having married Hale and had a family.

The events may be public, but guilt is not written in  our


From:  "O'Sullivan, Brian P"  <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot  Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
To:   [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: Of "awful  daring"
Date:  Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:48:23  -0400
I've always imagined that if the "daring moment"  had a
referent, it was something less public and documentable  than what we
know of his marriage or conversion or change of  national
affiliation--something "not to be found in our  obituaries."


Brian  O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of  Englishh
Director of the Writing Center
Montgomery Hall 50
18952 E. Fisher  Rd.
St. Mary's College of Maryland
St. Mary's City, Maryland


From: T. S. Eliot  Discussion forum. on behalf of Kate Troy
Sent: Mon  6/11/2007 4:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"

These  lines may not have referred to his marriage.  Perhaps he
leaving  America and living his life as a British citizen.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Gish
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sun, 10 Jun  2007 1:29 pm
Subject: Re: Off "awful  daring"

It need not be either approval or  disapproval but simply fact.  It
Eliot, after  all, who said that it was better to do evil than to
nothing because "at least we exist."  (Or it may be "at least  we
alive"--I just read it but it's not right  here.)  In any case,
moments are not very  present in any of the poetry, and when they
possible, whoever is speaking tends to fail.

It was  not much of a marriage for Viv either, and it was she whose
never recovered.  He seems to have sustained guilt over that  but
have acted on his guilt.

>>> cr mittal  <[log in to unmask]> 06/10/07 1:12 PM >>>
Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
The awful daring of a moment's surrender
Which an age of prudence can never retract

CR: I have always seen this as Eliot's way of saying "Marry  in
repent at leisure." Not believing in  divorce, his sudden to
marry Viv left him one of their lifetimes in which to  repent.

I don't think so, Diana.  There's a note of approval, not
to the "awful daring of a moment's surrender" in

The awful daring of a moment's surrender
Which an age of prudence can never retract
// By  this, and this only, we have existed //



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