Print

Print


Well there is either psychopathology or a moral sense. If you know a woman is waiting to marry you throughout her adult life, and you continue the relationship for 30 years, and marry two other women, you either feel guilty or you don't. Do you have a third alternative Peter? Diana


From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:00:25 -0800

What a set of inferences!
P.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Diana Manister
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"

Well Peter, if he didn't feel guilty about ruining Emily Hale's love life he was psychopathic, and there is sufficient evidence that he did not suffer from a complete lack of moral sense. If he had any conscience, and there is proof that he did in his poems and elsewhere, then he felt guilty about her. Diana

Peter wrote: The grief and despair I can believe, but none of what you have
said there proves that he felt guilty about her. It is tempting to infer it
from TFR, but that's no proof.

Thanks for the useful summary.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tueesday, June 12, 2007 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"


> Eliot's biographers report that he felt great guilt.  Ackroyd quotes
> Christopher Sykes that "He was, by one account, 'shattered by grief and
> almost despair' after Vivien's death and, if it had not been for John
> Hayward's help and encouragement, would have retired into complete
> seclusion."  Gordon also describes him as griefstricken.  What did he do
> afterwards?  He abandoned both Emily Hale, whom he had been seeing for
> years--visiting in the US and having her visit in England--and Mary
> Trevelyan, and he simply also walked out on Hayward wheen he married
> Valerie.  Emily Hale learned of the marriage from the newpaper, though
> she had believed for decades that he would marry her if her were free.
> And it was not because she was a naive New England unmarried woman.  He
> had taken her about and written to her for 30 years.  He did do
> something about the guilt, though.  He wrote it into Harry in "The
> Family Reunion."
> Nancy
>
> >>> Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> 06/12/07 1:09 AM >>>
> I agree with the assertion of  "at least we exist"'
> It reeminds me of the prescription in Ch 3. of REVELATIONS:
> "Be thou either hot or cold. If thou art neither hot
> nor cold, I will vomit thee out of my mouth."
>
> As to E.s guilt over V's burial in the asylum, how do
> you know he felt guilty about it, and how do you know
> he did nothing in response to that guilt?
>
> P.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Of "awful daring"
>
>
> > It need not be either approval or disapproval but simply fact.  It was
> > Eliot, after all, who said that it was better to do evil than to do
> > nothing because "at least we exist."  (Or it may be "at least we are
> > alive"--I just read it but it's not right here.)  In any case, daring
> > moments are not very present in any of the poetry, and when they are
> > possible, whoever is speaking tends to fail.
> >
> > It was not much of a marriage for Viv either, and it was she whose
> life
> > never recovered.  He seems to have sustained guilt over that but not
> to
> > have acted on his guilt.
> > Nancy
> >
> > >>> cr mittal <[log in to unmask]> 06/10/07 1:12 PM >>>
> > Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >         The awful daring of a moment's surrender
> >   Which an age of prudence can never retract
> >
> >   CR: I have always seen this as Eliot's way of saying "Marry in
> haste,
> >   repent at leisure." Not believing in divorce, his sudden to decision
> > to
> >   marry Viv left him one of their lifetimes in which to repent. Diana
> >
> >
> >   I don't think so, Diana. There's a note of approval, not
> disapproval,
> >   to the "awful daring of a moment's surrender" in
> >
> >   The awful daring of a moment's surrender
> >   Which an age of prudence can never retract
> >   // By this, and this only, we have existed //
> >
> >   Regards,
> >
> >   CR
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >  Get your own web address.
> >  Have a HUGE year tthrough Yahoo! Small Business.
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/844 - Release Date:
> 6/11/2007
> 5:10 PM
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.15/847 - Release Date: 6/12/2007
9:42 PM
>
>



PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail.


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.15/847 - Release Date: 6/12/2007 9:42 PM



Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN