Indeed !
  You neglect and belittle the desert.
The desert is not remote in southern tropics
The desert is not only around the corner,
The desert is squeezed in the tube-train next to you,
The desert is in the heart of your brother. 
                               (Choruses from The Rock)
  Thanks, Peter.
  ~ CR

Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
      And the crowds, "So many, I had not thought death had undone so many"?
  Where do they hold a presence?
  Which lead us back to the primitive.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cr mittal 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 8:02 AM
  Subject: Re: Eliot's Indic Studies

  Absolutely, all in a hedgerow, Peter. 
  Your reference to the numinal world brings me to the following link.
  Not that it relates exactly to the subject in hand but yes it does, in 
  a way:
  Things relate to things and bring them under one sphere.
  Yesterday, Ken's query about "samsaara" (the phenomenal world)
  and "nirvaana" (Buddhist liberation from the sufferings of this world)
  got me bemused about the paradoxical way in which the two are one.
  Ken had wanted me to explain these terms -- roughly.
  So here's my view of it.
  Buddha realized that the world (samsaara) is a place of suffering. 
  The way to freedom (nirvaana) from suffering lies not in escape
  from the world to some solitary retreat but by living in this world 
  and cultivating a right mode of life. His main stress is on right 
  thought and right conduct. Evil thoughts, as well as evil deeds, 
  bring suffering. Good thoughts, as well as good deeds, bring 
  I too am reminded of Eliot's "still point" where one is,
  paradoxically, in motion and not in motion, one is
  part of the world and yet apart from it. 
  The crux of Hindu philosophy (in the Bhagavad Gita) is
  its emphasis on "righteous action" as well as a state of
  detachment from both joys and sorrows.
  I'm reminded of the Christian emphasis on good deeds:
  "Everyman, I shall go with thee."
  It is only by passing through the fire of this world
  that one gets purified. The hell, the purgatory, and
  the paradise are metaphoric territories of human mind --
  in the here and the now.
  Sounds like timeless sermons. But that's part of
  Eliot's "tradition" I suppose :)
  ~ CR

Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
          All in a hedgerow.
  Then there is the numinal world, and access(attachment) to it at the still point.
    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cr mittal 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:28 AM
  Subject: Re: Eliot's Indic Studies

  Hello Ken,
  The word "samsaara" denotes the phenomenal "world", 
  and "nirvaana" denotes "freedom" from it.
  The article at the following link could be of further help
  on this subject:
  ~ CR

Ken Armstrong <[log in to unmask]> wrote:   CR,

For the non-Buddhists among us, can you say roughly what are Sa.msaara 
and the more familiar

Ken A.

At 10:48 PM 12/5/2006, you wrote:
>Dear Listers,
>Sa.msaara is nothing essentially different from
> is nothing essentially different from sa.msaara.
>The limits of nirvaana are the limits of samsaara.
>Between the two, also, there is not the slightest difference whatsoever.' "
>Rather puzzling! No wonder TSE felt the need to "continue to explore".

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