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Don't forget that he said he always carried a pocket version of one of the
Books of the Comedy,
esp. for reading on trains.
P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Diana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: Eliot's visit to pre-historic Tombs


> Yes, Peter that rose is often cited as a reference to the Paradiso.
Eliot's
> flower imagery includes the rose, hyacinth, goldenrod, lilac and many
> others, often if not always indicating a psychic state. In "T.S. Eliot:
The
> American Strain" A.D. Moody traces specifically American flora and fauna
in
> Eliot's poems to determine the setting of the passages in which they
occur.
> "the rank ailanthus of the April dooryard" in "The Dry Salvages" is an
> obvious referencing of Whitman's poem on Lincoln's death, "when lilacs
last
> in the dooryard bloom'd" and the allusion can give rise to many an
> hermeneutic speculation on Eliot's relationship to America.
>
> The Waste Land contained more distinctly American flora and fauna before
> Pound's editing, but only the hermit thrush remains, according to Moody.
> References to plants in the poems often occur as memories -- "The voice of
> the hidden waterfall/And the children in the apple-tree" in Little Gidding
> are likely his recollections of an American childhood. Yet this poem also
> ends with a rose: "When the tongues of flame are in-folded/Into the
crowned
> knot of fire/And the fire and rose are one" -- a flower that grows
> exceptionally well in Europe as well! The hyacinth and the lilac are part
of
> significant memories. So his flower imagery may serve as markers of times
in
> his life to which his lines refer, the rose integrating his experiences in
> America and Europe into a psychological whole, as well as serving as a
> symbol of spiritual enlightenment. Since his settings are largely urban,
> images of nature are significant. Eliot said the only scenery that ever
made
> an impression on him was in Missouri and Massachusetts. Diana
> .
> From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Eliot's visit to pre-historic Tombs
> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:42:47 -0800
>
> Any thoughts about these particular lines:
>
> ................................
> Sightless, unless
> The eyes reappear
> As the perpetual star
> Multifoliate rose
> Of death's twilight kingdom
> ..............................
> For Thine is the Kingdom
> ..............................
>
> Here's a clue: Dante.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: cr mittal
>    To: [log in to unmask]
>    Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 7:18 AM
>    Subject: Re: Eliot's visit to pre-historic Tombs
>
>
>    The Hollow Men ??? Wow! I never thought of that. Many thanks, Peter.
>    At your instance, I explored the poem and found, to my great surprise,
>    that it was, indeed, saturated in primitive lore -- the mindset, the
> magical
>    rites et al. I wish to draw the List's attention to the following lines
> in the
>    poem:
>
>    Let me also wear
>    Such deliberate disguises
>    Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
>    In a field
>    Behaving as the wind behaves
>
>    Here the stone images
>    Are raised, here they receive
>    The supplication of a dead man's hand
>    Under the twinkle of a fading star.
>
>    Is it like this
>    In death's other kingdom
>    Waking alone
>    At the hour when we are
>    Trembling with tenderness
>    Lips that would kiss
>    Form prayers to broken stone.
>
>    In this valley of dying stars
>    In this hollow valley
>    This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms
>
>    In this last of meeting places
>    We grope together
>    And avoid speech
>    Gathered on this beach of the tumid river
>
>    Sightless, unless
>    The eyes reappear
>    As the perpetual star
>    Multifoliate rose
>    Of death's twilight kingdom
>
>    Here we go round the prickly pear
>    Prickly pear prickly pear
>    Here we go round the prickly pear
>    At five o'clock in the morning.
>
>    Between the idea
>    And the reality
>    Between the motion
>    And the act
>    Falls the Shadow
>
>    Between the conception
>    And the creation
>    Between the emotion
>    And the response
>    Falls the Shadow
>
>    Life is very long
>
>    Between the desire
>    And the spasm
>    Between the potency
>    And the existence
>    Between the essence
>    And the descent
>    Falls the Shadow
>
>    For Thine is the Kingdom
>
>    It should be interesting in this regard to read the following excerpt
>    from an article by David Chinitz.
>
>    ~ CR
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------
>
>    Chinitz, David "In the Shadows: Popular Song and Eliot's Construction
>    of Emotion" Modernism/modernity - Volume 11, Number 3, September
>    2004, pp. 449-467. The Johns Hopkins University Press.
>
>
>
http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi?uri=/journals/modernism-modernity/v011/11.3chinitz.html
>
>    Excerpt:
>
>    The "Shadow" that falls in The Hollow Men "Between the emotion / And
>    the response / . . . Between the desire / And the spasm" thwarts sexual
> consummation in a land where "Lips that would kiss / Form prayers to
>    broken stone."3 Neither emotion nor desire is absent; indeed, the
hollow
>    men "trembl[e] with tenderness" at night. But the Shadow interposes,
>    and desire is spent in obscure and ineffectual religious rites.
>    Eliot's poetry is full of such frustrating shadows...
>
>    ----------------------------
>
>
>    Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>      Curious that "The Hollow Men" is never referred to on this list.
>      Peter
>        ----- Original Message -----
>        From: cr mittal
>        To: [log in to unmask]
>        Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 3:34 AM
>        Subject: Re: Eliot's visit to pre-historic Tombs
>
>
>        Many thanks, Peter, for these insightful remarks.
>        The contemplation of  "the original primitive sensibilities" was,
> indeed,
>        a core concern to Eliot.
>
>
>
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