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DM>"while TWL and previous poems, esp. Gerontion, struggle to unify not only opposites but fragments that seem to bear no relation to each other -- the papers and cigarette ends in the littered streets and along the Thames the narrators encounter"
 
PM> I think those poems simply struggle to present effective perceptions.
Meaning is derived by the reader from the world perceived
through the poem by the reader. If the reader perceives duality,
that is about the reader, not about the poems' stuggles (or the poet's).
P.
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Diana Manister
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Dualism

Carrol wrote:

" Christianity _does_ continually threaten to collapse into a dualism of good and evil,
> god & the world, matter & soul, etc. My own reading of 4Q would be that
> they represent (among many other things) an immense (but ultimately
> unsuccessful) struggle to _avoid_ dualism. But most good poems probably
> embody an unsuccessful struggle of some sort."

Carrol it seems to me at this point in my study of Eliot's poetry that the 4Qts express the Christian version of a unitive vision, while TWL and previous poems, esp. Gerontion, struggle to unify not only opposites but fragments that seem to bear no relation to each other -- the papers and cigarette ends in the littered streets and along the Thames the narrators encounter. The flattened affect of his narrator's voice in Prufrock and TWL expresses deep depression, while the voice of 4Qts is blissful. Or so I see it at present. Diana



From:  Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
To:  [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: Dualism
Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 2006 21:29:28 -0700
As I remember, Eliot wrote a couple of articles for The Monist.
;->
P.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carrol Cox" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 12:22 PM
Subject: Dualism


> From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dualism/
>
> Dualism
> First published Tue 19 Aug, 2003
>
> This entry concerns dualism in the philosophy of mind. The term
> 'dualism' has a variety of uses in the history of thought. In general,
> the idea is that, for some particular domain, there are two fundamental
> kinds or categories of things or principles. In theology, for example a
> 'dualist' is someone who believes that Good and Evil - or God and the
> Devil - are independent and more or less equal forces in the world.
> Dualism contrasts with monism, which is the theory that there is only
> one fundamental kind, category of thing or principle; and, rather less
> commonly, with pluralism, which is the view that there are many kinds or
> categories. In the philosophy of mind, dualism is the theory that the
> mental and the physical - or mind and body or mind and brain - are, in
> some sense, radically different kinds of thing. Because common sense
> tells us that there are physical bodies, and because there is
> intellectual pressure towards producing a unified view of the world, one
> could say that materialist monism is the 'default option'. Discussion
> about dualism, therefore, tends to start from the assumption of the
> reality of the physical world, and then to consider arguments for why
> the mind cannot be treated as simply part of that world.
>
> ----
>
> The entire article is (when pasted into a Word file) 133K. One can see
> why it is possible to blunder about quite a bit when using the term
> "dualism," which is controversial among professional philosophers &
> historians.
>
> A clear religious dualism is to be found in Manichaeism -- which St.
> Thomas regarded as the most serious heresy to refute. The charge of
> manichaeism was often a death sentence. The _reason_ theologians
> regarded it as so serious a heresy, of course, is that Christianity
> _does_ continually threaten to collapse into a dualism of good and evil,
> god & the world, matter & soul, etc. My own reading of 4Q would be that
> they represent (among many other things) an immense (but ultimately
> unsuccessful) struggle to _avoid_ dualism. But most good poems probably
> embody an unsuccessful struggle of some sort.
>
> Carrol
>
>
> --
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