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You're welcome to take whatever you want.
P.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Diana Manister 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 2:41 PM
  Subject: Re: Eliot and Biography


  Peter wrote:
  The poem as a perceptual device of one's own world, and one's
  own experience is much more relevant.

  I take it you buy into the French view that the text exists apart from the human being that created it. Perhaps that old scenario of monkeys typing texts can be updated to computers creating texts unrelated to human experience, leaving readers in solipsistic bliss. Diana







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    From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
    Reply-To: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
    To: [log in to unmask]
    Subject: Re: Eliot and Biography
    Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:13:12 -0700


    So TWL can help with Eliot's biography, fine.
    No argument.

    If a person wants to limit the experience of TWL
    to Eliot's personal experience, that is such a person's choice.
    If one wants one's imagination to be anchored in such a
    limited water okay.

    But one need not do that, nor need one pay any attention to
    Eliot's biography, any more than one need pay attention to
    Fraser or Weston.

    Obviously the poem had a major effect on the literary world,
    and it would seem, inexplicably so, before that biographical
    information was available.

    The poem as a perceptual device of one's own world, and one's
    own experience is much more relevant.

    P.
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Diana Manister 
      To: [log in to unmask] 
      Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:21 PM
      Subject: Re: Eliot and Biography


      My plain text is still not working. Hope this font is not too large! 

      T.S. Eliot's Personal Waste Land by James E. Miller, Jr. explores many of the explicit and implicit references in the poem, such as the strong possibility that the dead Phoenician sailor represents Eliot's grief for his friend Jean Verdenal, to whom he dedicated his first volume of poems, Prufrock and Other Observations in 1917. (The 1925 edition included with the dedication the words "mort aux Dardanelles.")

      The view that TWL express the the voice of a generation is not contradicted by its having been written by an author personally impacted by the events of WWI. An exploration of the evidence of those effects as found in Eliot's letters and other reliable sources would seem to be a legitimate scholarly pursuit. Diana









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        From:  Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]>
        Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
        To:  [log in to unmask]
        Subject:  Re: Eliot and Biography
        Date:  Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:11:01 -0400
        I do not think anyone was likely to know that before the publication of
        the Facsimile edition except perhaps some of Eliot's friends or perhaps
        scholars who worked on biography or history.  I learned it from the
        facsimile, and I had been reading scholarship for a long time before.

        I think every generation of readers will have their experience changed
        by new knowledge.  In fact it was Eliot who said that providing such
        facts was one of the most useful things scholarship could do.  (I'm
        paraphrasing from memory).  Knowing the history of Eliot's marriage and
        the effects of WWI on both of them, reading his letters and his
        previously unpublished poems reframes the whole canon of his work.  It
        is simply not possible, for example, to read TWL as strictly a symbolic
        representation of the modern world based on Jesse Weston--though that
        had some influence late in the composition.  Interestingly, Paul Fussell
        seemed to recognize the importance of all this very early, and Grover
        Smith also.
        Nancy

        >>> "Brian O'Sullivan" <[log in to unmask]> 8/31/2006 2:31 PM >>>
        Thanks, Diana and Nancy, for some very interesting information (and, by
        the
        way, I think "interesting" is, in itself, an excellent reason to bring
        up a
        point in a conversation about literature).

        I'm curious how well Eliot's original audience would have known
        Larisch's
        books or would have known her as a notable figure. Is it likely that
        Marie's
        real-world identity changed the meaning of Eliot's poem for
        contemporaneous
        readers? (I'm not asking because I think this is the only important
        question
        when using biography in criticism, but because I think it is one
        interesting
        question.)

        Brian

        On 8/31/06 1:30 PM, "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

        > Diana's point is very important, and it takes on added significance
        that
        > according to Valerie Eliot, "in fact he had met the author (when and
        > where is not known), and his description of the sledding, for
        example,
        > was taken verbatim from a conversation he had with this neice and
        > confidante of the Austrian Empress Elizabeth."
        >
        > When verbatim conversations of actual people and events are placed in
        a
        > poem, clearly biography is significant.  Moreover, Eliot was in
        Germany
        > when WWI started, listened to tales of trench warfare from his
        > brother-in-law Maurice, and wrote many many letters about the deeply
        > disturbing impact of that War and the difficulties of the Home
        Front.
        > All of that plays into the world he sees in TWL.  It also connects
        his
        > use of Hesse and his admiration for Hesse to his own experience.
        > Nancy
        >
        >>>> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> 08/31/06 11:48 AM >>>
        > Peter wrote:
        > "It is interesting to know that Marie of TWL perhaps reflects an
        actual
        > person, but what relevance is that to the poem as a whole, other
        than,
        > perhaps, that other parts of the poem reflect related actual elements
        of
        > life. Interesting, but so what?"
        >
        > Peter, it is more than interesting that Marie is certainly Marie,
        > Countess Larisch, and that her story illustrates not only the state
        of
        > the aristocracy in Europe during the war years but the migrations of
        > refugees it caused, both themes in TWL In addition, Eliot quotes her
        > speaking in her native language, not in translation. The sampling of
        > untranslated languages in the poem is a somewhat separate issue, but
        in
        > this instance it brings home the Countess's refugee status in a
        concrete
        > manner.
        >
        > More about her can be found at
        > http://world.std.com/~raparker/exploring/thewasteland/exmarie.html
        if
        > this excerpt does not suffice.
        >
        > "Marie's life took a turn for the worst in January 1889 when
        Archduke
        > Rudolph, who was married to Princess Stephanie (the daughter of
        Leopold
        > II of Belgium) was found dead at Mayerling, a hunting lodge not far
        from
        > Vienna. The body of the archduke, the heir to the Austrian Empire,
        was
        > found with the body of Marie (Mary) Vetsera, a baroness who was his
        > mistress (see Mayerling below.) Even by her own accounts the
        Countess
        > had been serving as a go-between for Rudolph and Mary, although, in
        her
        > books, she wrote that she was at times duped and at other times her
        > good-nature was taken advantage of. Despite this, when the affair
        came
        > to its bloody end she suffered the wrath of the imperial family and
        > became the disgrace of Europe.
        >
        > During World War I the Countess underwent six months training and
        served
        > as a Red Cross supervisor in charge of hospital trains. Her son Otto
        was
        > called to service in the last year of the war until he was gassed
        and
        > wounded."
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Express yourself with gadgets on Windows Live Spaces
        > http://discoverspaces.live.com?source=hmtag1&loc=us



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