Sending out the hounds, are you?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Diana Manister 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 2:35 PM
  Subject: Re: Eliot and Biography

  Well Peter, being capable of coyness yourself, surely you can appreciate Eliot's dropping clues that he knew might be pursued. Diana


    From:  Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
    Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
    To:  [log in to unmask]
    Subject:  Re: Eliot and Biography
    Date:  Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:57:45 -0700
    All interesting information which we have been through countless times on
    this list,
    But the Marie in the poem has her own existence as a part of the art form,
    just as
    Stephen Dedalus in Portrait Of  The Artist has his own existence and is not
    simply an autobiographical presentation of Joyce.
      If the biography of the original Marie were relevant, it would be in the
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Diana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
    To: <[log in to unmask]>
    Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 8:48 AM
    Subject: Eliot and Biography

    > Peter wrote:
    > "It is interesting to know that Marie of TWL perhaps reflects an actual
    person, but what relevance is that to the poem as a whole, other than,
    perhaps, that other parts of the poem reflect related actual elements of
    life. Interesting, but so what?"
    > Peter, it is more than interesting that Marie is certainly Marie, Countess
    Larisch, and that her story illustrates not only the state of the
    aristocracy in Europe during the war years but the migrations of refugees it
    caused, both themes in TWL In addition, Eliot quotes her speaking in her
    native language, not in translation. The sampling of untranslated languages
    in the poem is a somewhat separate issue, but in this instance it brings
    home the Countess's refugee status in a concrete manner.
    > More about her can be found at if this
    excerpt does not suffice.
    > "Marie's life took a turn for the worst in January 1889 when Archduke
    Rudolph, who was married to Princess Stephanie (the daughter of Leopold II
    of Belgium) was found dead at Mayerling, a hunting lodge not far from
    Vienna. The body of the archduke, the heir to the Austrian Empire, was found
    with the body of Marie (Mary) Vetsera, a baroness who was his mistress (see
    Mayerling below.) Even by her own accounts the Countess had been serving as
    a go-between for Rudolph and Mary, although, in her books, she wrote that
    she was at times duped and at other times her good-nature was taken
    advantage of. Despite this, when the affair came to its bloody end she
    suffered the wrath of the imperial family and became the disgrace of Europe.
    > During World War I the Countess underwent six months training and served
    as a Red Cross supervisor in charge of hospital trains. Her son Otto was
    called to service in the last year of the war until he was gassed and
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