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A poet making clues that can be encrypted only by
learning about his biographical data is simply a bad
poet.

D.

--- Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


---------------------------------

Well Peter, being capable of coyness yourself, surely
you can appreciate Eliot's dropping clues that he knew
might be pursued. Diana




---------------------------------

From:  Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
<[log in to unmask]>
To:  [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: Eliot and Biography
Date:  Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:57:45 -0700
All interesting information which we have been through
countless times on
this list,
But the Marie in the poem has her own existence as a
part of the art form,
just as
Stephen Dedalus in Portrait Of  The Artist has his own
existence and is not
simply an autobiographical presentation of Joyce.
  If the biography of the original Marie were
relevant, it would be in the
poem.
P.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Manister" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 8:48 AM
Subject: Eliot and Biography


> Peter wrote:
> "It is interesting to know that Marie of TWL perhaps
reflects an actual
person, but what relevance is that to the poem as a
whole, other than,
perhaps, that other parts of the poem reflect related
actual elements of
life. Interesting, but so what?"
>
> Peter, it is more than interesting that Marie is
certainly Marie, Countess
Larisch, and that her story illustrates not only the
state of the
aristocracy in Europe during the war years but the
migrations of refugees it
caused, both themes in TWL In addition, Eliot quotes
her speaking in her
native language, not in translation. The sampling of
untranslated languages
in the poem is a somewhat separate issue, but in this
instance it brings
home the Countess's refugee status in a concrete
manner.
>
> More about her can be found at
http://world.std.com/~raparker/exploring/thewasteland/exmarie.html
if this
excerpt does not suffice.
>
> "Marie's life took a turn for the worst in January
1889 when Archduke
Rudolph, who was married to Princess Stephanie (the
daughter of Leopold II
of Belgium) was found dead at Mayerling, a hunting
lodge not far from
Vienna. The body of the archduke, the heir to the
Austrian Empire, was found
with the body of Marie (Mary) Vetsera, a baroness who
was his mistress (see
Mayerling below.) Even by her own accounts the
Countess had been serving as
a go-between for Rudolph and Mary, although, in her
books, she wrote that
she was at times duped and at other times her
good-nature was taken
advantage of. Despite this, when the affair came to
its bloody end she
suffered the wrath of the imperial family and became
the disgrace of Europe.
>
> During World War I the Countess underwent six months
training and served
as a Red Cross supervisor in charge of hospital
trains. Her son Otto was
called to service in the last year of the war until he
was gassed and
wounded."
>
>
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