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I just put in Pound and Portrait, and up it came.

http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1662.html

P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dunja Seselja" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: Identity of the speaker in 'Preludes'


> Yes, indeed. For, every seeing is "seeing as".
> (But THAT is now fascinating, since, if we see
> everything "as this-or-that", then what is this what
> we see as this-or-that?)
> 
> Anyone knows if Pound's Portrait d'un Femme is maybe
> somewhere on the web? Haven't found it with google...
> 
> Dunja
> 
> --- Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> > It is amazing how much of one's own perceptual
> > conditioning
> > can be found in the poem. It isalso useful to
> > reference
> > Pound's Portrait d'un Femme, which makes a
> > fascinating companion piece.
> > "Your mind and you are our sargasso sea."
> > 
> > The poem is a spectral stone indeed.
> > 
> > P.
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Dunja Seselja" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 2:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: Identity of the speaker in 'Preludes'
> > 
> > 
> > > Very interesting idea, Peter. There are, in
> > general, a
> > > lot similarities between Preludes, Portrait of a
> > Lady
> > > and Love Song of A.J. Prufrock. 
> > > Could it be that the Preludes mentioned in
> > Portrait of
> > > a Lady are a cross-reference to Eliot's own
> > Preludes? 
> > > It is also interesting that in all three poems the
> > > subject is confronted with what Marcian called
> > > "ontological shock" - he is overwhelmed with time
> > and
> > > his finite existence in it. Heideggerian
> > > being-to-death maybe? It is fascinating how much
> > of
> > > Heidegger can be found in early Eliot... written
> > at
> > > least 10 years before Heidegger's main work was
> > > published.
> > > 
> > > Dunja
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > It might be worth considering "Portarait of a
> > > > Lady"'s 
> > > > "You have the scene arrange itself,as it will
> > seem
> > > > to do."
> > > > P.
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "Dunja Seselja" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 3:34 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Identity of the speaker in
> > 'Preludes'
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > Dear Marcin,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I've been thinking of the questions you rose
> > at
> > > > the
> > > > > List and here are some ideas (and further
> > > > questions)
> > > > > I've come up to.
> > > > > The subject appearing in Eliot's Preludes
> > seems to
> > > > be
> > > > > undetermined, and in so far, I guess it could
> > be
> > > > even
> > > > > see as the generic one. In any case, the main
> > > > > characteristic of the subject (when I say the
> > > > subject,
> > > > > I don't mean the subject of the speaker, but
> > the
> > > > > subject the poem speaks of, but in how far
> > they
> > > > should
> > > > > be distinguished at all, I'll say something a
> > bit
> > > > > later) is his/her passivity. While in the part
> > I
> > > > the
> > > > > subject is set against the world (being
> > subjected
> > > > to
> > > > > its course), in the part II (s)he is set
> > against
> > > > the
> > > > > time (being "condemned" to it) . (I think the
> > > > second
> > > > > verse of the part II shares some of the ideas
> > > > > appearing in Prufrock, and I'd be glad to
> > discuss
> > > > that
> > > > > issue as well). 
> > > > > In the part III, we finally see the subject
> > > > *doing*
> > > > > something, but even that ("you tossed a
> > blanket")
> > > > is
> > > > > the action of removing = replying to what has
> > > > already
> > > > > been there. But what this part seems to bring
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > (only?) action left to the subject - to have a
> > > > vision
> > > > > (in solitude). Now, in the part IV, the
> > subject of
> > > > the
> > > > > speaker finally appears, but almost equivalent
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > subject (s)he is  talking about - it is again
> > a
> > > > > passive subject (i am moved... I cling...).
> > The
> > > > final
> > > > > verse reveals a sort of "catharsic" discovery
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > subject (both the speaker and the one (s)he is
> > > > > speaking of), similar to the relation of the
> > > > ancient
> > > > > Greeks towards the destiny: as the destiny is
> > > > > uncontrollable even by gods themselves, why
> > making
> > > > so
> > > > > much fuss about it? 
> > > > > It seems to me that the status of the subject
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > poem could be compared with Heidegger's notion
> > of
> > > > > "being thrown into the world" (excuse my
> > > > formulation,
> > > > > I'm not sure how this expression is to be
> > > > translated
> > > > > in English), as well as with the "eigentlich"
> > and
> > > > > "uneigentlich" modes of "Dasein".
> > > > > However, I don't see why the poem would stand
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > opposition to the classical subject-object
> > > > relation,
> > > > > and how would that be related to the
> > "ontological
> > > > > shock" you mentioned. If by "ontological
> > shock"
> > > > you
> > > > > consider the realization of the finiteness of
> > > > human
> > > > > being, then this idea is definitely present in
> > > > both
> > > > > Preludes and the Love Song of A.J. Prufrock,
> > but I
> > > > > don't see how that could be connected with an
> > > > > anti-Cartesian approach. Could you develop a
> > bit
> > > > more
> > > > > on that?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Dunja
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- marcin ostrouch <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > I would like to raise the issue of identity
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > speaker in /Preludes.
> > > > > > /
> > > > > > Please forgive me if you find it an open
> > secret,
> > > > but
> > > > > > being a non-native 
> > > > > > speaker of English, and rather a novice at
> > > > > > systematic criticism, I find 
> > > > > > the question problematic.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > At present I am attempting a reading of a
> > couple
> > > > of
> > > > > > poems by TSE in the 
> > > > > > light of Heideggerian concept of authentic
> > > > > > existence. Therefore, I tend 
> > > > > > to shun the structuralist approach which
> > > > pervades
> > > > > > the grey volumes of my 
> > > > > > institute's library...
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > It does seem that throughout the poem the
> > > > identity
> > 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
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