Dear Vishvesh: I have bookmarked the link you sent me. It contains valuable information I would not have easily found without your help! It seems that there is a bit of disagreement among the six systems, but there is agreement among them, to wit:

'All Indian philosophy considers ignorance as a barrier to liberation. This ignorance results from false identification of the Self with body-mind-sense complex. Thus we are entangled in the mesh of attachment and hatred that invariably leads to all our selfish and therefore sinful acts and sufferings. Only when one attains true knowledge of the true Self (God, Brahman, Consciousness) one is freed from the slavery of the senses and all sufferings come to an end.'

Would "the false identification of the Self with the body-mind-sense complex" include one's fancies, as in the lines from Preludes that inspired this discussion, and a "multitude of solipsisms?

If Eliot had Indian philosophies in mind when writing the poem, particularly the "way of liberation" they present, then Marcin's interpretation that one of the poem's subtexts is "there is no way out" would seem to be contraindicated.  Eliot's university studies must have acquainted him with this aspect of Hindu belief. Diana


From:  Vishvesh Obla <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
To:  [log in to unmask]
Subject:  For Diana (Was :Re: "That Thou Art" and Preludes)
Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:37:41 -0700
Diana,

It is too difficult to have a comprehensive picture of
Hinduism.

The principle of Maya was championed by Shankara and
formed the core of Advaita philosophy that rejuvenated
Hindu religion at one period of time.  (In could be an
interesting note that Eliot was very much interested
in Shankara.  I am not sure though if he was well
aware of the many other schools of spiritual
philosophy).

There is a brief but well-written account of the six
schools of Indian philosophies which have reference to
the principle of Maya at:
http://www.geocities.com/neovedanta/a80.html I hope it
helps.



---------------------------------

Vishvesh, thank you for the information. I would
appreciate your explanation of aspects of Hinduism, if
any, that cite "attachment" as a cause for suffering.
Diana


---------------------------------
From:  Vishvesh Obla <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
<[log in to unmask]>
To:  [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: "That Thou Art" and Preludes
Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:49:31 -0700


'the being suffering from maya, those fancies that the
ego spins, that Indic religions identify as the cause
of all suffering? Diana'

Diana,

Just FYI.

The principle of Maya forms only one of the aspects of
Indian spiritual philosophy.  It culminated in
Vedanta, whereas there are various other principles
that form the core of Hindu Religion.


--- Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


---------------------------------

Marcin wrote:

Those "worlds", with their pretensions to exclusivity,
in the context of mystical experience of the ONE
("infinitely gentle"),
may seem, I imagine, somewhat amusing.

Marcin, consider that perhaps the "infinitely gentle,
infinitely suffering thing" is the being suffering
from maya, those fancies that the ego spins, that
Indic religions identify as the cause of all
suffering? Diana



---------------------------------
From: marcin ostrouch <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
<[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "That Thou Art" and Preludes
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:14:26 +0200

Dear Dunja,

You  wrote:

You mention "multitude f solipsisms", which isone of
the points important for the Cartesianphilosophical
standpoint, but on the other hand, inyour previous
posts you spoke of an anti-Cartesianapproach presented
in this poem.How do you connect these two?
What I meant, and what hopefully I partly explain in
my reply to CR,
is that  the  speaker in Preludes seems to be
attempting a resolution of
apparent dichotomies.

Subject - object dichotomy of the Cartesian approach
is presented in the poem,
I think, as both inalienable and alienating...

The speaker's awareness of "multitude of solipsisms",
and of his/her own partaking
in such an epistemic situation, is a step towards the
sense of alienation endemic in this very situation.
While there is no way out of it, the speaker comes to
understanding that all the worlds constructed by
solipsistic ego-subjects are merely "points of view"
"revolving like ancient women / Gathering fuel in
vacant lots."

Those "worlds", with their pretensions to exclusivity,
in the context of mystical experience of the ONE
("infinitely gentle"),
may seem, I imagine, somewhat amusing.

Would you agree?

Marcin








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