Peter wrote: "members of the mystical body of Christ." Theology is in the syntax. Being a member OF something is not identical to being it. Diana


From:  Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
To:  [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: Eliot and Divisions
Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:05:46 -0700
Many Christians see themselves as members of the mystical body of Christ.

P.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vishvesh Obla" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Eliot and Divisions


> Diana,
>
> Great going.  I am learning a lot from you.  I am not
> sure if CR meant that Christian  and the Upanishadic
> aspirations are basically the same, but your subtle
> distinction in the passage ' No sane Christian nor any
> Christian mystic would make the statement I am Christ
> in the sense a Hindu who says "I am Brahman" means it'
> is wonderful to read.  Yes, they are two unique paths
> of salvation and it is only a mark of respect for
> either we should not mix one with another.   The
> neo-Vedantic (new age) Swamis do that mistake often
> and I am glad you see the difference.
>
> 'Christ consciousness' as you call it appears to me as
> of something 'external' while the Upanishadic and the
> entire Indic spirituality hardly take that position.
> I see the argument in this subject here in various
> threads in that line too.
>
> Keep writing more.  Thank You.
>
> - vishvesh
>
> --- Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> CR I cannot agree, nor does More, with the view that
> Christian aspiration is the same as that found in the
> Vedas and Upanishads. Eliot and More both read and
> commented on Paul Deussen's famous study titled The
> Philosphy of the Upanishads and the System of the
> Vedanta. Deussen describes the doctrine of Brahman as
> a path to realizing Brahman as the Self within
> themselves, not as a Godhead opposed to or exterior to
> themselves requiring pious meditation. In the realm of
> Brahman in the deep self, distinctions between God and
> man are abolished.
>
> Deussen further explains that in Vedanta philosophers
> travel the lower or "exoteric" path because in Kearns'
> words, "the necessity for them to express themselves
> in words forced them constantly in the direction of
> exoteric or mythic expressions for difficult and
> esoteric truths."
>
> Kearns writes: "Eliot found the distinction between
> exoteric and esoteric religious perspectives
> important, and he made use of it, in one form or
> another, both before and after his own acceptance of
> Christian faith. It can even be argued...that Eliot's
> conversion itself was based on his recognition of
> himself as a Devotee rather than as a Sage and that he
> accepted an exoteric world of myth, allegory,
> devotion, and religious observance instead of that
> (inner) recognition." Reilly, in The Cocktail Party,
> describes what amounts to these two paths to Celia."
>
> Christianity has no equivalent to Tat Tvam Asi. No
> sane Christian nor any Christian mystic would make the
> statement I am Christ in the sense a Hindu who says "I
> am Brahman" means it. "Christ consciousness" is not
> the same, is it? If you see it as identical, I would
> love to know. Diana
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> From:  cr mittal <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
> <[log in to unmask]>
> To:  [log in to unmask]
> Subject:  Eliot and Divisions
> Date:  Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:54:18 -0700
>
>
> >>Diana : More refers to "that viviid consciousness of
>
>   >>a dualism felt in the daily habit of humanity."
>
>   Diana, when the Vedas and the Upanishads speak of
>   "That art thou", they speak of the "ultimate reality
> of
>   a human being", i.e. his/her true essence, which
>   he/she should try to realize. That remains an object
> of
>   aspiration, as much as in Eliot's poetry, say
>   in Four Quartets. In "the daily habit of humanity",
>   man is as much divided from God in the Vedic
>   philosophy as in any other.
>
>   Best,
>   CR
>
>
> Diana Manister <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Carrol I was not attempting to present a thesis on
> Christianity via the TSE list. I cited the book T.S.
> Eliot and the Indic Traditions which outlines
> differences between Christianity and the religion of
> the Upanishads. Kearns quotes portions of Eliot's own
> writing on the subject and texts by Paul Elmer More
> whose view of religion Eliot said he supported which
> state clearly that a Christian cannot "amalgamate" the
> command Thou Shalt Love Thy Lord thy God with the
> Indic belief I am Brahma. More refers to "that viviid
> consciousness of a dualism felt in the daily habit of
> humanity." Religion for Eliot, Kearns says, "was the
> acceptance of this cleavage in our nature."
>   For further explication of Eliot's view of exoteric
> and esoteric religious perspectives, see Kearns,
> chapter 2, "Hindu Traditions."  Best, Diana
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> From:  Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To:  "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
> <[log in to unmask]>
> To:  [log in to unmask]
> Subject:  English Vocabulary, was Re: Eliot and
> Divisions
> Date:  Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:03:05 -0500
> Diana Manister wrote:
> >
> > Dear Carroll: Surely you are aware of the many
> commentaries on Eliot's
> > work that interpret his narrators as expressing not
> only their divided
> > selves, but severings and fragmentations in the
> environment?
>
> But nowhere does any commentary suggest that the
> purpose of the poems is
> to create enmity between God and humanity. As closely
> related as the
> words "division" and "devisive" are, you simply cannot
> use the latter
> word as you are using it and expect people to know
> what the hell you are
> talking about. Try using the term "fragmentation"
> instead, and not by
> itself but, for example, "fragmented experience,"
> "fragmented responses
> to experience," etc.
>
> Carrol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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