Print

Print


The commas reflect pronunciation. It is the
sound, or lack thereof which carries the meaning.

P.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: (OT) Towards a speech of the machine ...


> In fact, I can (and do) give examples of each to writing classes from
> first year to faculty every year, and they all--without
> exception--recognize and can explain the difference in meaning--despite
> the fact that few know the terms. The following sentences have quite
> different meanings, and every native English speaker will recognize
> that:
> 
> The girl who was intelligent went home.
> The girl, who was intelligent, went home.
> 
> The first sentence gives us information not available in the second.
> 
> To carry this further, imagine the horrors of a grammar-checked version
> of Faulkner--all those winding, convoluted sentences "fixed" by
> simplistic rules.  Or, worse, Joyce:  the grammar-checked and fully
> revised for comprehension by computer of _Ulysses_.
> 
> This, by the way, validates rules, not the opposited.  It is because
> commas have meaning that the two sentences above have different
> meanings.  And no rule requires either one in any specific
> instance--only an author can decide which to say.  It is a case of
> crystal clear writing because it makes a precise and significant
> distinction.
> Nancy
> 
> 
> >>> [log in to unmask] 04/11/06 12:04 AM >>>
> A lot of people wouldn't know what type of clause you intended either.
> Could be case of unclear writing.
> 
> Peter
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: (OT) Towards a speech of the machine ...
> 
> 
> > Here is something computers and math cannot do (by definition I am
> > sure):  know whether I intend a restrictive or nonrestrictive clause
> > where it is optional.  Hence the pointlessness of grammar checks,
> which
> > do not seem to know any grammar.
> > Nancy
> > 
> > >>> [log in to unmask] 4/10/2006 3:03 pm >>>
> > Three is an entire field called 'Knowledge Representation' which
> exists
> > to 
> > do things exactly like this.
> > 
> > In regard to the recent comments on Diderot, there is a project called
> > 'Cyc' 
> > which is intended to encode all of the common sense and other
> knowledge
> > that 
> > people use (Cyc as in encyclopedia). For example, Cyc is supposed to
> be
> > able 
> > to surmise and thus know that if Alice is the mother of Bob then by 
> > implication Alice is older than Bob. It would be able to build up a
> set
> > of 
> > rules and facts that would allow it to understand how the world
> > operates.
> > 
> > Cyc is a massive database project that has been going on for many
> > years. Cyc 
> > was supposed to be able to take human-level queries about real world
> > issues 
> > and create useful answers. Now if Cyc were able to do this, it would
> be
> > 
> > known far outside the AI community. Since it is not, this is the
> answer
> > to 
> > your question on the ability of mathematics to represent real world 
> > knowledge. Determining that the mother of Bob is older than Bob is a 
> > significant achievement for this program. Now consider this program 
> > understanding or writing poetry.
> > 
> > Knowledge beyond the trivial is beyond the scope of mathematics.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Vishvesh Obla" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:36 PM
> > Subject: (OT) Towards a speech of the machine ...
> > 
> > 
> > Written elsewhere but relevant to a discussion a few
> > days before:
> > 
> > --------------------
> > 
> > A few days before when a few friends of mine were
> > sending me birthday wishes which led to further
> > correspondence when I remarked that after you cross a
> > certain age, birth days also bring in an acute feeling
> > of your age, a friend of mine  made a humorous remark
> > (from a Tamil song) : 'Andondru pOnal vayadhondru
> > kUdum.'.  I was struck by the beauty of the line for
> > the tint of sarcasm (which was humorous) it had.
> > 
> > Another friend who was not a Tamilian wanted to know
> > what it meant.  While I was stumbling at various
> > expressions to translate it so that it would also
> > convey that subtle sarcasm, my wife, who is a computer
> > programmer as well, had translated it without batting
> > her eyelid with a quick :
> > 
> > if year++ then age ++
> > 
> > I was stunned by that expression which I don't know
> > what to term as.  It wasn't translation, to say the
> > obvious. You could translate the lyric blandly as
> > 'With the passing of a year, your age increases as
> > well' or, if someone had the ability to versify in
> > English, write something equally memorable (with that
> > subtle sarcasm).  But this was neither. It was an
> > entire transformation of an *idea* in mathematical
> > terms. For, the expression had the precise
> > mathematical equivalent of what the lyric conveyed.
> > 
> > I was struck by it by the questions it arose in my
> > mind.  Language is of course about conveying sense
> > through verbal and written communication, but what
> > becomes of communication when it becomes mathematical
> > ? It sure does gain in great clarity and precision,
> > but I was wondering how oblivious it is of the
> > imaginative faculty that enriches language by its
> > creative breath.  The development of language goes
> > through various phases of alterations.  Various
> > changes are constantly brought in to it by various
> > factors as the development of its various dialects,
> > influences of other languages etc.  When the written
> > form of it gets standardized it brings in a great
> > change as well for many languages.  Change is
> > permanent, no doubt.  But I was a little concerned
> > about a development as this : that is, to express a
> > sentiment through mathematical terms.  For, I believe,
> > this change is going to stay in and influence stronger
> > than any other changes the human mind earlier could
> > adopt itself to or assimilate while still retaining
> > its innate sense of the breath of life a language has
> > in it inherently.  We have already heard of computers
> > composing music and poetry.  Is creativity a
> > mathematical logic and precision in expression as that
> > of that code which expresses the idea brilliantly ?  I
> > was wondering if in an age when Technology has
> > advanced at an unbelievable speed, mankind would
> > invariably be more and more pushed towards such
> > precise expressions possibly altering language to an
> > entirely different level that has been unseen
> > hitherto.
> > 
> > Are we seeing the *dawn* of it already ?   Or is it a
> > doom ?
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/304 - Release Date:
> 4/7/2006
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/304 - Release Date: 4/7/2006
> 
>