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Rick,

Just some thoughts.

Read stand alone, the translation that CR quoted reads
nice and typically Eliot to me. And the usage of
'cheap' instead of inexpensive too sounds suggestive
of Eliot. There is an overall feeling in the
(translated) poem that is suggestive of Eliot and I
think the translator focussed upon it than anything
else.

- vishvesh

--- "Rickard A. Parker" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> CR Mittal wrote:
> > 
> > Translated* into English, Lune de Miel reads:
> 
> Dear CR,
> 
> First, thank you for for taking the time to supply
> Professor
> S. Jathaul's translations of Eliot's French poems.
> 
> Second, please excuse my changing the subject line
> of the thread.
> In my (very old) mail reader HTML in a message being
> responded to
> causes the mailer to blow up.  Since I had to just
> send a message
> I figured that a new subject line would help
> differentiate between
> the various poems.
> 
> I would like to discuss "Lune de Miel" because,
> despite my very
> limited French, I have a few issues with the
> translation.  Below I
> will supply Eliot's original, Jathaul's translation
> and then an
> attempt of mine.
> 
> 
> TSE> Ils ont vu les Pays-Bas, ils rentrent à Terre
> Haute;
> 
> SJ> They saw the Netherlands, they are returning to
> High Land;
> 
> RP> They saw the Low Countries, they are returning
> to Terre Haute;
> 
> 
> In the line above, Jathaul went way too far with the
> translation.
> Both Pays-Bas and Netherlands mean "Low Countries"
> but the 
> Low Countries also include Belgium and Luxembourg. 
> Terre Haute
> is the name of a smallish city in Indiana, a
> mid-western state
> of the U.S.  Jathaul's translation loses the pun. 
> Of course if
> one doesn't know the French meaning of "Terre Haute"
> then my
> translation isn't up to snuff either.
> 
> Perhaps someone can comment on the mid-western
> "hicks" honeymooning in
> Europe.
> 
> 
> TSE> Où se trouvent la Cène, et un restaurant pas
> cher.
> 
> SJ> Where they find the Last Supper and a cheap
> restaurant.
> 
> RP> Where they find the Last Supper and an
> inexpensive restaurant.
> 
> Above: pas cher or inexpensive doesn't mean cheap. 
> But mostly
> this is quibbling.  I really wanted to mention that
> in the original
> "Last Supper" is really one word, Supper.  The
> capitalization
> changes the meaning.  This one is tough to translate
> but in the
> original French the wordplay between Supper and
> restaurant is a
> lot better.
> 
> 
> TSE> ... Saint Apollinaire
> TSE> En Classe, basilique connue des amateurs
> TSE> De chapitaux d'acanthe que tournoie le vent.
> 
> SJ> ... Saint Apollinaire
> SJ> En Classe, basilica known to lovers
> SJ> Of capitals of acanthus which turn the wind.
> 
> RP> ... Saint Apollinaire
> RP> En Classe, basilica known to lovers
> RP> Of capitals of acanthus turned by the wind.
> 
> In a number of Byzantine churches the Corintian
> columns have the usual
> acanthus leaves motif but they are unusually
> depicted as being blown
> by the wind (or by the Holy Spirit but perhaps the
> carvers were just
> showing off :-)
> 
> Below are some links I collected for various items
> mentioned in the
> poem.  Note that in the texts linked to that there
> is also a church
> named Saint Apollinaire Nouvo in Ravenna.
> 
> Regards,
>     Rick Parker
> 
> 
> Lune de Miel (in French):
>     http://www.bartleby.com/199/19.html
> 
> Terre Haute:
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre_Haute
> 
> Basilica of Sant' Apollinare in Classe:
>    
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_Sant%27_Apollinare_in_Classe
>     Has a very nice photo of the apse's mosiac.
> 
> Ravenna Mosaics (has seperate sections for the two
> Apollinares):
>    
> http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ulj/uljc.html
> 
> 
> I think the following was from Google's cache of
>     www.turismo.ravenna.it/monumenti/uclasse.htm 
> 
>     From the outside, then, the building appears as
> a simple and neat
>     involucrum, dressed with elegant brickwork, in
> its form, a faithful
>     reflection of the interior space.
> 
>     Inside, the basilica is characterized by a
> spaciousness that gives the
>     feeling of entering a dimension which is both
> abstract and
>     transcendent, imposing in its grandeur and
> majesty. It is divided into
>     three naves by two rows of twelve columns, all
> of the same veined
>     Greek marble, originating in the Sea of Marmara
> (A.Agnello), resting
>     on dadi decorated with a lozenge motif,
> something very common in
>     Constantinople and in the Eastern world
> generally.
> 
>     The interior space is well-proportioned: the
> central nave being equal
>     to twice that of the side naves. Apart from the
> priceless columns on
>     their dadi, the fine capitals are worthy of
> attention for their motif
>     - referred to as "acanthus leaves stirred by the
> wind", from the
>     impression they give of the sculptured leaves
> being swollen as if by a
>     breath of wind.
> 
>     They are also referred to as "butterfly-form"
> from the way the leaves
>     are counterpoised two-by-two, reminiscent of the
> wings of a
>     butterfly. These leaves are characterized by a
> minutia of perforations
>     which create chromatic and chiaroscuro effects:
> rows of flowers bring
>     out the lines of the leaves and the vein
> patterns. Similar capitals
>     are known in Greece and Constantinople.
> 
> 
> Arcanthus blown by the wind:
>    
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_%28architecture%29#Byzantine_and_Gothic_capitals
> 
>     Byzantine capitals are of endless variety; the
> Roman composite capital
>     would seem to have been the favourite type they
> followed at first:
>     subsequently, the block of stone was left rough
> as it came from the
>     quarry, and the sculptor, set to carve it,
> evolved new types of design
>     to his own fancy, so that one rarely meets with
> many repetitions of
>     the same design. One of the most remarkable is
> the capital in which
>     the leaves are carved as if blown by the wind;
> the finest example
>     being in Santa Sophia, Thessalonica; those in
> the Cathedral of Saint
>     Mark, Venice specially attracted Ruskin's fancy.
> Others appear in St
>     Apollinare-in-Classe, Ravenna.
> 
> More on Corinthian capitals:
> 
=== message truncated ===


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