Much to my chagrin and delight !  ;-)
 
Cheers,
CR

Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Aha! There's Rick, taking the high ground agaain. :)
Cheers,
P.


Quoting cr mittal <[log in to unmask]>:

> Dear Rick,
>
> You're absolutely right in pointing out the aberrations. I remember those
> days
> in the course of my research on Eliot's early poetry: how Professor Jathaul
> so kindly conceded time and sat with me for a couple of hours for each
> translation. I'm indeed sorry we did not undertake any homework for this
> task. I was just content with anything that could provide me clues to
> meaning. Hence these flaws. But now, looking at the translation in the light
> of your observations, I have no doubt there is every scope for your
> well-founded corrections/modifications. As always, yours is great work,
> indeed! And I'm truly grateful.
>
> I wish you could work out a modified version of these translations for the
> archives of this Forum.
>
> Best regards.
>
> CR
>
> "Rickard A. Parker" <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> CR Mittal wrote:
> >
> > Translated* into English, Lune de Miel reads:
>
> Dear CR,
>
> First, thank you for for taking the time to supply Professor
> S. Jathaul's translations of Eliot's French poems.
>
> Second, please excuse my changing the subject line of the thread.
> In my (very old) mail reader HTML in a message being responded to
> causes the mailer to blow up. Since I had to just send a message
> I figured that a new subject line would help differentiate between
> the various poems.
>
> I would like to discuss "Lune de Miel" because, despite my very
> limited French, I have a few issues with the translation. Below I
> will supply Eliot's original, Jathaul's translation and then an
> attempt of mine.
>
>
> TSE> Ils ont vu les Pays-Bas, ils rentrent à Terre Haute;
>
> SJ> They saw the Netherlands, they are returning to High Land;
>
> RP> They saw the Low Countries, they are returning to Terre Haute;
>
>
> In the line above, Jathaul went way too far with the translation.
> Both Pays-Bas and Netherlands mean "Low Countries" but the
> Low Countries also include Belgium and Luxembourg. Terre Haute
> is the name of a smallish city in Indiana, a mid-western state
> of the U.S. Jathaul's translation loses the pun. Of course if
> one doesn't know the French meaning of "Terre Haute" then my
> translation isn't up to snuff either.
>
> Perhaps someone can comment on the mid-western "hicks" honeymooning in
> Europe.
>
>
> TSE> Où se trouvent la Cène, et un restaurant pas cher.
>
> SJ> Where they find the Last Supper and a cheap restaurant.
>
> RP> Where they find the Last Supper and an inexpensive restaurant.
>
> Above: pas cher or inexpensive doesn't mean cheap. But mostly
> this is quibbling. I really wanted to mention that in the original
> "Last Supper" is really one word, Supper. The capitalization
> changes the meaning. This one is tough to translate but in the
> original French the wordplay between Supper and restaurant is a
> lot better.
>
>
> TSE> ... Saint Apollinaire
> TSE> En Classe, basilique connue des amateurs
> TSE> De chapitaux d'acanthe que tournoie le vent.
>
> SJ> ... Saint Apollinaire
> SJ> En Classe, basilica known to lovers
> SJ> Of capitals of acanthus which turn the wind.
>
> RP> ... Saint Apollinaire
> RP> En Classe, basilica known to lovers
> RP> Of capitals of acanthus turned by the wind.
>
> In a number of Byzantine churches the Corintian columns have the usual
> acanthus leaves motif but they are unusually depicted as being blown
> by the wind (or by the Holy Spirit but perhaps the carvers were just
> showing off :-)
>
> Below are some links I collected for various items mentioned in the
> poem. Note that in the texts linked to that there is also a church
> named Saint Apollinaire Nouvo in Ravenna.
>
> Regards,
> Rick Parker
>
>
> Lune de Miel (in French):
> http://www.bartleby.com/199/19.html
>
> Terre Haute:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre_Haute
>
> Basilica of Sant' Apollinare in Classe:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_Sant%27_Apollinare_in_Classe
> Has a very nice photo of the apse's mosiac.
>
> Ravenna Mosaics (has seperate sections for the two Apollinares):
> http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ulj/uljc.html
>
>
> I think the following was from Google's cache of
> www.turismo.ravenna.it/monumenti/uclasse.htm
>
> From the outside, then, the building appears as a simple and neat
> involucrum, dressed with elegant brickwork, in its form, a faithful
> reflection of the interior space.
>
> Inside, the basilica is characterized by a spaciousness that gives the
> feeling of entering a dimension which is both abstract and
> transcendent, imposing in its grandeur and majesty. It is divided into
> three naves by two rows of twelve columns, all of the same veined
> Greek marble, originating in the Sea of Marmara (A.Agnello), resting
> on dadi decorated with a lozenge motif, something very common in
> Constantinople and in the Eastern world generally.
>
> The interior space is well-proportioned: the central nave being equal
> to twice that of the side naves. Apart from the priceless columns on
> their dadi, the fine capitals are worthy of attention for their motif
> - referred to as "acanthus leaves stirred by the wind", from the
> impression they give of the sculptured leaves being swollen as if by a
> breath of wind.
>
> They are also referred to as "butterfly-form" from the way the leaves
> are counterpoised two-by-two, reminiscent of the wings of a
> butterfly. These leaves are characterized by a minutia of perforations
> which create chromatic and chiaroscuro effects: rows of flowers bring
> out the lines of the leaves and the vein patterns. Similar capitals
> are known in Greece and Constantinople.
>
>
> Arcanthus blown by the wind:
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_%28architecture%29#Byzantine_and_Gothic_capitals
>
> Byzantine capitals are of endless variety; the Roman composite capital
> would seem to have been the favourite type they followed at first:
> subsequently, the block of stone was left rough as it came from the
> quarry, and the sculptor, set to carve it, evolved new types of design
> to his own fancy, so that one rarely meets with many repetitions of
> the same design. One of the most remarkable is the capital in which
> the leaves are carved as if blown by the wind; the finest example
> being in Santa Sophia, Thessalonica; those in the Cathedral of Saint
> Mark, Venice specially attracted Ruskin's fancy. Others appear in St
> Apollinare-in-Classe, Ravenna.
>
> More on Corinthian capitals:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_order
>
> Good collection of pictures of Ravenna:
> http://www.colonialvoyage.com/viaggi/itaravenna.html
> This shows the columns in Saint Apollinaire en Classe but the detail
> can't be seen. The above shows Dante's tomb too.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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