Much to my chagrin and delight ! ;-) Cheers, CR Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Aha! There's Rick, taking the high ground agaain. :) Cheers, P. Quoting cr mittal : > Dear Rick, > > You're absolutely right in pointing out the aberrations. I remember those > days > in the course of my research on Eliot's early poetry: how Professor Jathaul > so kindly conceded time and sat with me for a couple of hours for each > translation. I'm indeed sorry we did not undertake any homework for this > task. I was just content with anything that could provide me clues to > meaning. Hence these flaws. But now, looking at the translation in the light > of your observations, I have no doubt there is every scope for your > well-founded corrections/modifications. As always, yours is great work, > indeed! And I'm truly grateful. > > I wish you could work out a modified version of these translations for the > archives of this Forum. > > Best regards. > > CR > > "Rickard A. Parker" wrote: > CR Mittal wrote: > > > > Translated* into English, Lune de Miel reads: > > Dear CR, > > First, thank you for for taking the time to supply Professor > S. Jathaul's translations of Eliot's French poems. > > Second, please excuse my changing the subject line of the thread. > In my (very old) mail reader HTML in a message being responded to > causes the mailer to blow up. Since I had to just send a message > I figured that a new subject line would help differentiate between > the various poems. > > I would like to discuss "Lune de Miel" because, despite my very > limited French, I have a few issues with the translation. Below I > will supply Eliot's original, Jathaul's translation and then an > attempt of mine. > > > TSE> Ils ont vu les Pays-Bas, ils rentrent à Terre Haute; > > SJ> They saw the Netherlands, they are returning to High Land; > > RP> They saw the Low Countries, they are returning to Terre Haute; > > > In the line above, Jathaul went way too far with the translation. > Both Pays-Bas and Netherlands mean "Low Countries" but the > Low Countries also include Belgium and Luxembourg. Terre Haute > is the name of a smallish city in Indiana, a mid-western state > of the U.S. Jathaul's translation loses the pun. Of course if > one doesn't know the French meaning of "Terre Haute" then my > translation isn't up to snuff either. > > Perhaps someone can comment on the mid-western "hicks" honeymooning in > Europe. > > > TSE> Où se trouvent la Cène, et un restaurant pas cher. > > SJ> Where they find the Last Supper and a cheap restaurant. > > RP> Where they find the Last Supper and an inexpensive restaurant. > > Above: pas cher or inexpensive doesn't mean cheap. But mostly > this is quibbling. I really wanted to mention that in the original > "Last Supper" is really one word, Supper. The capitalization > changes the meaning. This one is tough to translate but in the > original French the wordplay between Supper and restaurant is a > lot better. > > > TSE> ... Saint Apollinaire > TSE> En Classe, basilique connue des amateurs > TSE> De chapitaux d'acanthe que tournoie le vent. > > SJ> ... Saint Apollinaire > SJ> En Classe, basilica known to lovers > SJ> Of capitals of acanthus which turn the wind. > > RP> ... Saint Apollinaire > RP> En Classe, basilica known to lovers > RP> Of capitals of acanthus turned by the wind. > > In a number of Byzantine churches the Corintian columns have the usual > acanthus leaves motif but they are unusually depicted as being blown > by the wind (or by the Holy Spirit but perhaps the carvers were just > showing off :-) > > Below are some links I collected for various items mentioned in the > poem. Note that in the texts linked to that there is also a church > named Saint Apollinaire Nouvo in Ravenna. > > Regards, > Rick Parker > > > Lune de Miel (in French): > http://www.bartleby.com/199/19.html > > Terre Haute: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre_Haute > > Basilica of Sant' Apollinare in Classe: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_Sant%27_Apollinare_in_Classe > Has a very nice photo of the apse's mosiac. > > Ravenna Mosaics (has seperate sections for the two Apollinares): > http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ulj/uljc.html > > > I think the following was from Google's cache of > www.turismo.ravenna.it/monumenti/uclasse.htm > > From the outside, then, the building appears as a simple and neat > involucrum, dressed with elegant brickwork, in its form, a faithful > reflection of the interior space. > > Inside, the basilica is characterized by a spaciousness that gives the > feeling of entering a dimension which is both abstract and > transcendent, imposing in its grandeur and majesty. It is divided into > three naves by two rows of twelve columns, all of the same veined > Greek marble, originating in the Sea of Marmara (A.Agnello), resting > on dadi decorated with a lozenge motif, something very common in > Constantinople and in the Eastern world generally. > > The interior space is well-proportioned: the central nave being equal > to twice that of the side naves. Apart from the priceless columns on > their dadi, the fine capitals are worthy of attention for their motif > - referred to as "acanthus leaves stirred by the wind", from the > impression they give of the sculptured leaves being swollen as if by a > breath of wind. > > They are also referred to as "butterfly-form" from the way the leaves > are counterpoised two-by-two, reminiscent of the wings of a > butterfly. These leaves are characterized by a minutia of perforations > which create chromatic and chiaroscuro effects: rows of flowers bring > out the lines of the leaves and the vein patterns. Similar capitals > are known in Greece and Constantinople. > > > Arcanthus blown by the wind: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_%28architecture%29#Byzantine_and_Gothic_capitals > > Byzantine capitals are of endless variety; the Roman composite capital > would seem to have been the favourite type they followed at first: > subsequently, the block of stone was left rough as it came from the > quarry, and the sculptor, set to carve it, evolved new types of design > to his own fancy, so that one rarely meets with many repetitions of > the same design. One of the most remarkable is the capital in which > the leaves are carved as if blown by the wind; the finest example > being in Santa Sophia, Thessalonica; those in the Cathedral of Saint > Mark, Venice specially attracted Ruskin's fancy. Others appear in St > Apollinare-in-Classe, Ravenna. > > More on Corinthian capitals: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_order > > Good collection of pictures of Ravenna: > http://www.colonialvoyage.com/viaggi/itaravenna.html > This shows the columns in Saint Apollinaire en Classe but the detail > can't be seen. The above shows Dante's tomb too. > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!