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Dear Rick, You're absolutely right in pointing out the aberrations. I remember those days in the course of my research on Eliot's early poetry: how Professor Jathaul so kindly conceded time and sat with me for a couple of hours for each translation. I'm indeed sorry we did not undertake any homework for this task. I was just content with anything that could provide me clues to meaning. Hence these flaws. But now, looking at the translation in the light of your observations, I have no doubt there is every scope for your well-founded corrections/modifications. As always, yours is great work, indeed! And I'm truly grateful. I wish you could work out a modified version of these translations for the archives of this Forum. Best regards. CR "Rickard A. Parker" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: CR Mittal wrote: > > Translated* into English, Lune de Miel reads: Dear CR, First, thank you for for taking the time to supply Professor S. Jathaul's translations of Eliot's French poems. Second, please excuse my changing the subject line of the thread. In my (very old) mail reader HTML in a message being responded to causes the mailer to blow up. Since I had to just send a message I figured that a new subject line would help differentiate between the various poems. I would like to discuss "Lune de Miel" because, despite my very limited French, I have a few issues with the translation. Below I will supply Eliot's original, Jathaul's translation and then an attempt of mine. TSE> Ils ont vu les Pays-Bas, ils rentrent à Terre Haute; SJ> They saw the Netherlands, they are returning to High Land; RP> They saw the Low Countries, they are returning to Terre Haute; In the line above, Jathaul went way too far with the translation. Both Pays-Bas and Netherlands mean "Low Countries" but the Low Countries also include Belgium and Luxembourg. Terre Haute is the name of a smallish city in Indiana, a mid-western state of the U.S. Jathaul's translation loses the pun. Of course if one doesn't know the French meaning of "Terre Haute" then my translation isn't up to snuff either. Perhaps someone can comment on the mid-western "hicks" honeymooning in Europe. TSE> Où se trouvent la Cène, et un restaurant pas cher. SJ> Where they find the Last Supper and a cheap restaurant. RP> Where they find the Last Supper and an inexpensive restaurant. Above: pas cher or inexpensive doesn't mean cheap. But mostly this is quibbling. I really wanted to mention that in the original "Last Supper" is really one word, Supper. The capitalization changes the meaning. This one is tough to translate but in the original French the wordplay between Supper and restaurant is a lot better. TSE> ... Saint Apollinaire TSE> En Classe, basilique connue des amateurs TSE> De chapitaux d'acanthe que tournoie le vent. SJ> ... Saint Apollinaire SJ> En Classe, basilica known to lovers SJ> Of capitals of acanthus which turn the wind. RP> ... Saint Apollinaire RP> En Classe, basilica known to lovers RP> Of capitals of acanthus turned by the wind. In a number of Byzantine churches the Corintian columns have the usual acanthus leaves motif but they are unusually depicted as being blown by the wind (or by the Holy Spirit but perhaps the carvers were just showing off :-) Below are some links I collected for various items mentioned in the poem. Note that in the texts linked to that there is also a church named Saint Apollinaire Nouvo in Ravenna. Regards, Rick Parker Lune de Miel (in French): http://www.bartleby.com/199/19.html Terre Haute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terre_Haute Basilica of Sant' Apollinare in Classe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_Sant%27_Apollinare_in_Classe Has a very nice photo of the apse's mosiac. Ravenna Mosaics (has seperate sections for the two Apollinares): http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ulj/uljc.html I think the following was from Google's cache of www.turismo.ravenna.it/monumenti/uclasse.htm From the outside, then, the building appears as a simple and neat involucrum, dressed with elegant brickwork, in its form, a faithful reflection of the interior space. Inside, the basilica is characterized by a spaciousness that gives the feeling of entering a dimension which is both abstract and transcendent, imposing in its grandeur and majesty. It is divided into three naves by two rows of twelve columns, all of the same veined Greek marble, originating in the Sea of Marmara (A.Agnello), resting on dadi decorated with a lozenge motif, something very common in Constantinople and in the Eastern world generally. The interior space is well-proportioned: the central nave being equal to twice that of the side naves. Apart from the priceless columns on their dadi, the fine capitals are worthy of attention for their motif - referred to as "acanthus leaves stirred by the wind", from the impression they give of the sculptured leaves being swollen as if by a breath of wind. They are also referred to as "butterfly-form" from the way the leaves are counterpoised two-by-two, reminiscent of the wings of a butterfly. These leaves are characterized by a minutia of perforations which create chromatic and chiaroscuro effects: rows of flowers bring out the lines of the leaves and the vein patterns. Similar capitals are known in Greece and Constantinople. Arcanthus blown by the wind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_%28architecture%29#Byzantine_and_Gothic_capitals Byzantine capitals are of endless variety; the Roman composite capital would seem to have been the favourite type they followed at first: subsequently, the block of stone was left rough as it came from the quarry, and the sculptor, set to carve it, evolved new types of design to his own fancy, so that one rarely meets with many repetitions of the same design. One of the most remarkable is the capital in which the leaves are carved as if blown by the wind; the finest example being in Santa Sophia, Thessalonica; those in the Cathedral of Saint Mark, Venice specially attracted Ruskin's fancy. Others appear in St Apollinare-in-Classe, Ravenna. More on Corinthian capitals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_order Good collection of pictures of Ravenna: http://www.colonialvoyage.com/viaggi/itaravenna.html This shows the columns in Saint Apollinaire en Classe but the detail can't be seen. The above shows Dante's tomb too. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!