Dear Jennifer, I certainly did not write that. CR did, and I wrote to say the same thing you just did--there is no reason to connect Oedipus and the Tempest. The message below from CR is presumably an answer to me. But of course I do not see that the blending of characters in Eliot entails the notion that any possible character with some parallel quality can just be inserted. That was my point in quoting Gertrude to Hamlet. In any case, please don't attribute the notion below to me. On the other hand, I agree in general about "characters," but there are some. I think Sweeney is a "character" even outside "Sweeney Agonistes." And I think Lil and her interlocutor are "characters." Perhaps the point is that at times Eliot's poems are dramatic or have dramatic sections, as "A Game of Chess" is. Cheers, Nancy >>> [log in to unmask] 07/20/05 5:07 PM >>> CR, What do you mean by Eliot's characters? I wouldn't go so far as to say he creates any characters in his poems (the creation of character taking place more often in drama or novels). Would you? If so, why & how? I think this omission, or the shadowing of character, is part of the essential effect of many of Eliot's poems. Where he takes characters from literature or history, such as Tiresias, that is another matter, and one that can be explored along with his approximations to the dramatic monologue and Eliot's remarks upon it in 'The Three Voices of Poetry', 1953. On another note: unless I am mistaken, Nancy wrote a while back on Oedipus being brought into TWL in the lines around 'Musing upon the king my father's death'. Why? Where is the evidence that an allusion to Oedipus underlies that to Ferdinand in The Tempest? There is no allusion to Oedipus in The Tempest, I think. Yours, Jennifer --- CR Mittal <[log in to unmask]> wrote: --------------------------------- In Eliot's poetry, expressions derived from one context are often used in another context where they gain in intensity and meaning. Likewise, his characters subsume several others. As the poet observed in the Notes to TWL, "Just as the one-eyed merchant, seller of currants, melts into the Phoenician Sailor, and the latter is not wholly distinct from Ferdinand Prince of Naples, so all the women are one woman, and the two sexes meet in Tiresias." In TWL, it is Tiresias who lives through the agony of most personages, mixing memories and blending pains. ~ CR >From: Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> >Reply-To: "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]> >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: "the king my father's death..." >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 11:31:56 -0400 > >As Gertrude says to Hamlet, the death of fathers is common: "all that >lives must die, / passing through nature to eternity. Literature, like >life, is full of dead fathers. > >So I am confused at why this death is a likely allusion--why would >Ferdinand bring up Oedipus? >Nancy > > >>> [log in to unmask] 07/19/05 7:23 AM >>> --------------------------------- Get MSN Messenger with Video Conversation - FREE. The next best thing to being there.