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I'm surprised anyone still reads the trojan hearse's posts.
Shame on you.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: (OT) Roots of Western Civilization


> Nancy:
>
> Kate buys into this strange "hate Frechy" craze, which a sizable minority
seems to equate with loving the USA.  If you'd just consider the source when
reading her comments, you'd save yourself a lot of annoyance, and avoid
throwing pearls to swine.
>
> Kate, that's a metaphor: no need to remind me of the many ways in which
you are not swine-like.  Or, for that matter, that your husband is, was, or
speaks French, or whatever it was you last used to try to justify your
support of a fashionable bigotry.
>
> Tom K
>
>
> In a message dated 11/13/2004 9:19:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Nancy Gish
<[log in to unmask]> writes:
>
> >This is so astonishingly unfounded and rude that it cannot be ignored.
> >
> >Although there is a great deal more to "Western Civilization" than
> >military violence, that violence is genuinely part of it.   It is simply
> >part of history.
> >
> >Moreover, there is no contradiction whatever between critiqueing the
> >violence and accepting the technology and the enlightenment inheritance
> >of "free speech" as an ideal.
> >
> >Nor is there any remote connection between that critique and a desire to
> >have enslaved women.
> >
> >Nor is it at all certain that the United States would be in existence to
> >allow all this embarassing chauvinism had not France supported us and
> >helped us in the Revolutionary War.  Nor would all that Enlightenment
> >philosophy about individual rights and freedoms have been so powerful
> >had not the French thought up a good deal of it--despite the bloody
> >outcome in their own revolution.
> >
> >It is difficult to determine which of these responses is more misguided
> >or less aware of history.
> >
> >Why cannot we discuss Eliot on this since "Tradition and the Individual
> >Talent" is a key text in this notion of a European "mind" and certainly
> >France is a central part of it?  If you read Eliot, how can you not
> >notice his extreme reliance on French poetry in his early work?
> >Whatever else he was, he was not provincial.  Why do you think he went
> >to Paris over and over?  Why do you think so many Americans in the early
> >20th C went to live in Paris?
> >
> >                                                   "Do
> >"You know nothing?  Do you [read] nothing? Do you remember
> >"Nothing?"
> >
> >I note some names from a text in "Readings in Western Civilization":
> >Rousseau, Corneille, Voltaire, Condorcet.
> >
> >Condorcet's "The Progress of the Human Mind" is described by the editor
> >(I make no claim to French scholarship):  "A great monument of liberal
> >thought, it is a summary of the major ideas of the Enlightenment, ideas
> >that have exerted a dominating influence on Western thought in the 19th
> >and 20th centuries."
> >
> >It is not a recent textbook, but none of those names has ceased to
> >matter.  Can we not have civilized discussions based in some actual text
> >and history?  Words like "moron" and "stupid" and assumptions like the
> >idea that France is not an absolutely central part of Western
> >philosophy, literature, art, and culture simply waste words for the
> >purpose of--of what?  Gratuitous meanness?
> >Nancy
> >
> >
> >>>> [log in to unmask] 11/13/04 7:10 PM >>>
> >No doubt Carrol realizes this fact.  And, he even puts down France as a
> >part
> >of Western Civilization.   I wonder then, does he want us to live like
> >they do
> >in Arab countries, led by a Shah, a King or the like, where there is not
> >much
> >education to be had outside of the very basics and the study of Islam,
> >where
> >the women cannot work, drive or choose their own husbands in some cases,
> >where
> >the majority of people are poorer than we can imagine. The explantion
> >for
> >Carrol may be that he dreams of harems.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Kate
> >
> >In a message dated 11/13/2004 4:53:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> >[log in to unmask] writes:
> >Jacek Niecko wrote:
> >>
> >> Hasn't it occurred to you, you moron, that it is because of the
> >"western
> >> civilization" for which you have so much stupid contempt, that today
> >you are
> >> able to transmit such stupid garbage.
> >>
> >> Jacek Niecko
> >> Washington DC
> >
> >Temper temper. Better check your blood pressure. :-)
> >
> >Carrol
> >