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Dear Peter,

Surely, if you were an Elizabethan, you would know that Marlowe is
Christopher Marlowe, whilst Conrad's Marlow is MARLOW, without the 'e'.
Nor does this name appear in the quotation Eliot chose for the expunged
epigraph. Can you connect, with an example, the Conrad with anything by
Marlowe, Christopher (from whom Eliot does take two other epigraphs)?

Incidentally, how does the Petronius connect Cumae and Delphi? Cumae is
in Italy, Delphi Greece; and the Sibyl, as you know, foresees
absolutely nothing in the quotation. She is wishing; or waxing. Nor is
she even there; Trimalchio, the centre of that scene, recalls her words
(or makes them up, since in the Satyricon this story is a big lie which
all the company guffaw at ).   I would like to write more on the
quotation, and will do so in a reply to another post.

As to my papal pronouncements, I'm afraid cannot accept the compliment.

Yours, Jennifer


On Saturday, October 23, 2004, at 11:33  PM, Peter Montgomery wrote:

>
> One significant English resonance which H. of D. does have that
> Petronius doesn't is the name MARLOWE. That helps, considerably,
> us Elizabethans. Still, Conrad did Eliot a disservice
> (ahead of time, albeit, but then remember Trad. & Ind. Talent.)
> by associating Marlowe with the Buddha. The Petronius quote
> creates a direct connection between Cumae and Delphi. The seers
> may indeed have been enlightened but it would seem to be in their
> damnation.
>
> I know, I know. You're going to quote me the Fire Sermon. Go ahead.
>
> Cheers,
> P.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nancy Gish
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: 2004-Oct-23 9:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Death by Water: a reply
>
> It was Conrad--in the very symbolist H of D--who talked about the
> meaning not being like a kernel in a nutshell but like an aura around
> an
> object (paraphrase).  "The Horror! The Horror!" is filled with mystery
> and possibility; it is not at all simply a direct statement.
> Nancy
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 10/23/04 2:36 AM >>>
> Some elements to consider:
> Another language/another culture bring more context, more resonance.
> There is a deeper level of irony given that the Petronius story is
> really a joke.
>
> Then there is the question of symbolist style, which Eliot got from the
> French poets, and Pound got perhaps more directly from the orient
> (where the symbolists seem originally to have had it). It is the style
> of the very indirect allusion which opens up many creative
> possibilities
> for the reader. Yeats was thinking of much the same thing with his
> emotion of multitude.
>
> The Cornrad quote limits possibilities in its directness.
> The Petronius has a direct level, but so many other shadowy
> eleents waiting in the shadows which the reader is forced to
> look at if he wants to make sense of the reference. It is of
> the essnce of the Michaelangelo lines in Prufrock. Everybody
> wants to know what Eliot meant by it. It seems opaque and yet
> there are very pertinent possibilites there for the taking
> if one only lets the resonances sink in.
>
> Just some possibilities.
> P.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rickard A Parker
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: 2004-Oct-22 10:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Death by Water: a reply
>
> Jennifer Formichelli wrote:
>>
>> Regarding the epigraph, Eliot did not fret about it; where does he
>> fret? Pound writes to him about it, and Eliot replies he has replaced
>> it with the Petronius, 'or something like it' (there's a cryptic
>> comment for you). And you will recall that Pound almost withdrew his
>> insinuation about the epigraph all together: 'Who I am to grudge him
>> his laurel crown?' , telling Eliot to 'do as you like'.
>
>
> One account of Eliot's "fret" (TWL: A Facsimile ...  p. 125)
>
>     Pound: "I doubt if Conrad is weighty enough to stand the citation."
>
>     Eliot: "Do you mean not use the Conrad quote or simply not put
>     Conrad's name to it?  It is much the most appropriate I can find,
>     and somewhat elucidative."
>
>     Pound: "Do as you like about Conrad; who am I to grudge him his
> laurel
>     crown?"
>
>
>
>> And he did: he
>> chose the far superior, far more rich, Petronius. If you like, I can,
>> at some point, when I don't have to go to work, describe exactly why I
>> think the epigraph Eliot selected is far superior to the one he
>> expunged.
>
>
> Jennifer, please do send this in.  I lean the other way but whenever
> I try to reason it out or write why I just can't do it.
>
>
>> And how, most of all, could such a unity be 'constructed' by
>> excision?
>
> Sun, moon, puppy, stars, candle
>
> Regards,
>     Rick Parker
>