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You accuse me of "slinging muck" without having my facts straight, and yet you didn't even respond to my factual statements about your so-called UN resolutions against Israel.  I won't waste my time retyping the distinction between resolutions of the calibre against Israel and the type against Saddam (both 1441 and the attempted 2nd resolution were of the calibre which were enforcable and could warrant force.  If you're truly interested, just read my last post.
 
And if I make a perfectly valid point about why I can, in clear conscience, applaud an end to an evil regime, while at the same time waiting for the validity of Bush's justifications to be proven or disproven, you drag out your preferred dead horse:  convenient and easy.  Is it too troublesome to actually engage the argument?  Presumably, since it's so easy, it must be easily refutable.  The best you can manage is "what if" in ten years Iraq is a fundamentalist muslim state.  Having done nothing might have easily led to such a situation, too.
 
Let me reduce this to the apparently remedial terms you require:  Because I think it's good to end Saddam's regime does NOT mean I am bound to defend Bush's reasons should they prove false.  Bush is bound by the reasons he cited, and will be judged accordingly.
 
By the way:  NO, it's not an impeachable offense to have lied to the American public, else Clinton would have been impeached numerous times instead of just once, and so would every other President, I don't doubt.  You "conveniently" forget the "under oath" part.  The consequences I mention are, at a minimum, failed bids for re-election.  I don't know what other consequences there ought be, but I'm open to suggestions.  Just not illogical, llegal ones.
 
Justin
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Sunday, June 22, 2003 5:09:31 AM
Subject: Re: OT Anti-human
 
** I'm not responsible for past wrongs committed by past US governments,
and I refuse to be cornered by logic that says if I supported ousting
Saddam now I must have supported giving him money in the 80s. That's just
asinine. When I said this, I was trying to assert that I'll not waste time
rewriting or defending mistakes that have been made. That in no way
mitigates my responsibility to support right decisions made today

--this seems to me to be rather too easy for you, though. You say, we can $B!G (B
t do anything about the past so lets do something good now and change the
future for good. Do you not see how dangerous this is? If in 10 years
Iraq has turned into a fundamentalist Muslim state, I $B!G (Bll say $B!H (BI told you
so $B!I (B you $B!G (Bll say $B!H (Bc $B!G (Bmon let $B!G (Bs not talk about past wrongs $B!I (B

**. And if those decisions are backed by some whose motivations are
suspect, that still does not affect my decision, because mine is not
affected by oil or vengeance.

-- so now we are not discussing the relative merits of this in
invasion but just your opinion about it? Seems like you are moving the
goal posts.

**, I'll admit that some of those reasons were refined only after we were
allowed to stick a shovel into Iraq's oil. So dislike Bush all you like
and doubt his motivations. Iraqi civilians will no longer be targeted for
their religion and marched into the desert to face firing squads. Kurds
will no longer be used as no better than lab rats.

--Saddam Hussein was an awful dictator but there are many good things he
did do for the country, before the Gulf war (1) the country was one of the
richest most developed in the middle east. You and I both wanted Saddam
gone, but the simple fact is you can $B!G (Bt justify an action by the outcome,
especially not a war. Your argument also works along the fallacious lines
that everything is great in Iraq now, that is patently not the case, and we
have yet to see what government will develop there.



**If none are found, then be angry all you like at whomever you like. It
has no bearing upon whether I feel we made the right decision DESPITE what
may turn out to have been poor information or downright lies. If it was
lies, then we will not trust the purveyors again, and there should be
consequences for them.

-Ok so Bush now claims (yesterday) that the WMD have been looted. So now
they weapons (if there were any) may well be in the hands of the very
people, the war was supposed to prevent from getting hold of them. Also if
a couple of days of looting was all it took to dismantle his WMD, they can $B!G (B
t have been much of a threat in the first place.
--Tell, me I curious, what consequences do you think bush and Blair will
suffer for committing an illegal (under international law) war, and lieing
to the public? Isn $B!G (Bt that an impeachable offence? Do you think Bush will
be impeached? I somehow doubt they will suffer.


** It does not change that Saddam is out and the one million plus Kurds and
countless Shea Miuslims formerly victimized by him are much, much safer.
No doubt their lives will continue to be difficult; it seems some will not
acknowledge the validity of liberation unless the citizens, to a man, throw
parades for us and are left with free universal healthcare, new colleges,
and untainted democratic elections we can't even pull off at home.

--So now you are using the unfair election in the US as a bargaining tool?
You should be ashamed of what happened there, not using it to say, hey
well, we can $B!G (Bt get it right so it doesn $B!G (Bt matter if less develop
countries can $B!G (Bt get it right. Nonsense. Many $B!F (Blesser $B!G (B countries can
manage a fair, free election.

--I won $B!G (Bt $B!H (Backnowledge the validity of liberation $B!I (B until you show me
hard evidence that this will be better for Iraq in the future? You can $B!G (Bt
d o that though can you? Iraq $B!G (Bs who protest against the US invaders keep
getting shot at and killed. Sure it would have been worse under Saddam but
you can $B!G (Bt use that as an excuse for everything, you can $B!G (Bt have double
standards.


**Mostly, they're grateful for liberation but want us out. I'd oblige
them, but we both know that what you're already accusing about Afghanistan
will very shortly follow about Iraq if we pull out. We made a commitment
to assist in setting up a temporary government, but they don't want our
help. I'll be the first to admit it seems quite the catch 22.


--they don $B!G (Bt want your help because they know you $B!G (Bll install someone who
is friendly to the US, they want to vote for who they want, but the US has
already said it won $B!G (Bt allow $B!H (Bcertain $B!I (B governments.
--The troops stayed in Afghanistan and there is still a problem there?
When the media gaze switches to Iran or whoever, do you really think people
will care about Iraq?


**Many women CHOOSE to wear a burka, which is quite their right. And you
say "many" have not gone to school but I say many HAVE, which is worth
celebrating, don't you think? Is it not possible to agree that many things
our better, AND that we oughtn't shirk our further responsibilities.

--you are missing the point 40% of the country is still controlled by the
Taliban, the international community has reengaged on it $B!G (Bs promise to
give cash. Check out the facts, you $B!G (Bll find that $B!H (Bmany have $B!I (B is not the
case at all. Things are pretty much the same as they were before there.
Yeah many CHOOSE to wear the burka yeah that $B!G (Bs right, you got it. Do you
know what happens if they don $B!G (Bt?


**It is dishonest to try and place this kind of blame for "creating"
terrorists and lunatics. You have not assassinated politicians whom you
vehemently decry; am I to assume you are therefore their author and
underwriter?

--this argument barely warrants a response. American forces trained and
paid for Islamic fundamentalism in many countries. It used its terrorist
training programs to upset, or replace democratically elected governments
all over the world. You are trying to use a negative argument, in law I
think you $B!G (Bll find someone can be held responsible for creating something
(a bomb etc) not for not creating something. You argument is facile.



**Israel is of course another matter. I've done some digging and yes,
there are resolutions against Israel, but they seem not to call for any
type of enforcement, merely frowns and expressions of disappointment. Many
simply "urge" "call upon" or "take note of" Israel for one thing or
another.


--yes and there was no resolution granting the right to take military
action against Iraq (remember chasing that 2nd resolution?), that $B!G (Bs the
point! That $B!G (Bs why we can say, if Iraq, for ignoring UN resolutions, why
not Israel?

**Thus, I don't see why your comparison is valid.
--do you see now? Israel is in defiance of many UN resolutions asking for
it $B!G (Bs immediate withdrawal from occupied territory.

**And it strikes me as suspect that you would point this out just against
Israel. There are hundreds of UN resolutions against hundreds of countries
which similarly do not call for action.

--Human rights watch notes that $B!H (BIsrael committed war crimes in the
military operations in the Jenin refugee camp $B!I (B. $B!F (BThe Israeli army used
Palestinians as human shields. A fifty seven year old wheelchair bound man
was run over by a tank. US supplied helicopters fired anti-tank missiles
into the camp failing to distinguish between military and civilian targets.
200 buildings were damaged 140 were destroyed, Israel also blocked
emergency medical access to the Jenin camp. In one case shooting a nurse
who had come to the assistance of a wounded man. Israel has killed over 3
times the amount of people that Palestine has and occupies its territory,
however, you claim that arabs are $B!H (Bsharpening their knives $B!I (B conjuring
images of shylock. The trouble is if you criticize Israel you are
anti-Semitic but if you criticize Arabs then you are fighting terror.

--it $B!G (Bs a valid comparison as I noted above. don $B!G (Bt try to sling muck at
me, get your facts straight.

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