But it's fun, Jacek, and that's why we're here.
I must admit that Nancy is very clever at it.
And that's a big step for me, who has been accused
off list of carrying on a flame-war with her.
To which I say, "balls."


Dr. Peter C. Montgomery
Dept. of English
Camosun College
3100 Foul Bay Rd.
Victoria, BC CANADA V8P 5J2
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jacek Niecko [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 4:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar (you and I)

Unbelievable rubbish.  What rubbish.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: Grammar (you and I)

> All this can be read as a way of making sense, except I am sorry but it is
> not a matter of making sense or of opinion.  The "you and I" can,
> theoretically, be an appositive for "us" (as you read it) OR it can be an
> appositive for the implied "we" speaker OR it can be a direct address.
> Only in the way you read it is there a grammatical mistake, and there is
> no reason to assume a grammatical mistake.  So it is not really a matter
> of interpretation but a matter of grammar unless you want to assume Eliot
> got it wrong, and why should he?
> I now think I need to go back to texts for the descriptions of these
> sentence patterns.
> Nancy
> Date sent:              Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:42:54 -0400
> Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
<[log in to unmask]>
> From:                   "Rickard A. Parker" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject:                Re: Grammar (you and I)
> To:                     [log in to unmask]
> [log in to unmask] wrote:
> >
> > The "you and I" identifies who the "us" is, doesn't it?
> I agree.  In "Let us go then, you and I" the "you and I" seems to me
> to be a tacked-on phrase to identify "us"; equivalent to "Pharoah, let
> them go, Moses and his people."
> What would make the usage a bit strange is that "you" can be singular or
> plural and so "you and I" isn't needed.  If there are only two people
> there then "us" has to mean both of them and if there are more than two
> then "you" doesn't really identify any singular person or persons in the
> group (in a written context; verbally there could be a clue.)
> This may be why the "you" is so often read as being the reader, and is an
> invitation the reader into the poem.  Since the phrase may not have much
> meaning in a dramatic context (as if seen on a stage) then it may lead the
> reader to think that he is being addressed (singular you) out of a larger
> group (multiple readers, plural you).
> Regards,
>     Rick Parker