Dear Peter,

Thanks so much for these marks/keys.  Is there a place where one can
just find them all?  Erudition I like; but I'm a luddite and hopeless at


Date sent:              Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:49:44 -0800
Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
From:                   Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                Re: Screw grammar/ Apostrophe's
To:                     [log in to unmask]

Icelandic thorn -- lower case   - ALT + 0222 on keypad
                   upper case   - ALT + 0254 on keypad
           eth  --              - ALT + 0240 on keypad
OE ligature     --            OE  - ALT + 0140 on keypad
oe ligature     --            oe  - ALT + 0156 on keypad

Your sin, Nancy, is that you show evidence of erudition.
That is very gauche in modern culture. You really shouldn't
do it, you know. It raises the envy level of some people
beyond their endurance. Who of us likes to be faced with
his own inadequacies? Who of us likes to be confronted
with his own ignorance?

BTW, I frequently watch the Deutsche Welle news by
satellite. It would seem that the German way of stating


Dr. Peter C. Montgomery
Dept. of English
Camosun College
3100 Foul Bay Rd.
Victoria, BC CANADA V8P 5J2
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-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Gish [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 3:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Screw grammar/ Apostrophe's

Dear Carrol,

I cannot make the thorn mark, so I am transcribing it as a capital "Th,"
and omitting the other marks, but this transcription will show the

THa genealaehte he and wraTH his wunda and on ageat ele and win and
hine on his nieten sette and gelaedde on his laecehus and hine lacnode;

Then approached he and bound his wounds and in poured oil and wine and
him on his beast set and took into his hospital and him treated;

Sorry to everyone who can transcribe the OE on their computer, but it
shows the Germanic placement of the modifier before the verb--on his
beast set.  (Not my translation.)  OE inflections also have the genitive,
dative, accusative, etc., for both singular and plural.

I have no idea why Jacek is distressed that I had an undergraduate
teaching minor in German and about 5 semesters of Anglo-Saxon
language and literature in the doctoral program at Michigan (partly with
Sherman Kuhn, editor of the Middle English Dictionary, but this is a
ridiculous choice to note that.  One cannot do Scottish Studies without a
comparable linguistic base even if one is not a specialist in linguistics.
What IS his problem? Nancy

Date sent:              Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:39:32 -0600
Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
<[log in to unmask]>
From:                   Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                Re: Screw grammar/ Apostrophe's
To:                     [log in to unmask]

Nancy Gish wrote:
> It seems worth noting that Old English is a Germanic language and that
> it is easier to learn it if you speak German than if you speak modern
> English.  Because the changes (post 1066) took place more slowly and
> less completely in the north than the south, modern Scots is much closer
> to German and shares sounds lost in modern English (the sound of Loch,
> licht, and muir--which get mispronounced by English and Amercans as "k"
> and "oo," and has many more cognates:  "ken" is know; for example,
> "licht" is light in both languages; "kirk" is "kirche" and "night" is
> "nicht." So I think we really have as a history an invasion of German by
> French that became "English" and the reversal of English words in German
> is just part of a constant process.  But I think the Germans should
> refuse to let their version be invaded. Nancy

It's been fifty years since I read any Old English -- and I don't
remember whether it had that participial construction of modern German and
Russian. And if I remember correctly -- this is also 50 years or so ago --
my Russian instructor said that the Russians had deliberately imported the
construction from German, during a period of infatuation with German
culture. The Russian language _allows_ it but hadn't had it before
sometime in the 19th century. (I won't swear by this because my memory of
it is pretty vague.)