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[log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/8/02 3:25:10 PM EST, [log in to unmask] writes:
>
> > Anyone who disapproves of Hitler's treatment
> > of the Jews must, to be consistent,
> > equally disapprove of the Israeli
> > treatment of Palestinians.
> >
> >  Carrol
>
> "Hitler's treatment of the Jews"
>
> By "treatment" you mean, of course, the mass roundups of a country's own,
> unarmed citizens into camps from which they would be poisoned to death by

You leap to the end of the story. What you need to look like are the
years prior to that. What form the "final solution" will take in
Palestine remains to be seen. I see little difference between what is
happening to Palestinians in their own homeland now with what happened
to German Jews in the pre-ear period, or even the early years of the
war.

I should not have referred to Hitler, however, for another reason. I
violated an old law of Newsgroups -- the first person to refer to the
Nazis in loses the argument. And this 'rule,' flippant as it seems,
points to a much more serious matter.

It makes sense, at the present time, to point out that the U.S. is
threatening to become a police state. There is NO danger of fascism. The
tendency to call all authoritarian measures or structures "fascist" is
as silly today as it would have been in 1930 to call Hitler a
"Kaiserist." Fascism was a _species_ of authoritarian rule, a very
viciou species, but ony a species, not the general type. Jim Crow in the
south was, for those it ruled, as terrifying as was life in Germany
(before 1940) for Jews, but it is silly to call the Jim Crow South
"Fascist." Leopold in the Congo, invading Europeans in the western
hemisphere, most dramatically Colombus in Hispaniola, all committed
crimes of the same order of magnitude as Hitler's crimes, but none of
these were fascist. (Chipe Berlet and his colleagues argue for a form of
fascism they call "clerical fascism, of which the Taliban is an example.
They may be correct, but they are also very emphatic in denying the use
of "fascist" or "Nazi" as all-purpose epithets for nasty governmental
policy.

And just as equating "fascism" with all repressive (or police) states
muddies the waters of discourse, so seeing "The Final Solution" as _the_
model of genocide muddies debate on genocide. So my post was overhasty
and dissolute in its diction. And you then became equally dissolute in
your diction by equating "Hitler's treatment of the Jews" with "The
Final Solution," thus blurring the horror of what had _preceded_ the
final solution.

A more appropriate parallel to what is hapeening to the Palestinians is
the treatment of the Indians by Euro-Americans.

Carrol

A post from another list. Joanna Bujes's parents, Rumanian Jews, came to
this country when she was 10. She is just one of millions of Jews who
are _not_ Zionist and who _not_ consider my post "nonsense."

joanna bujes wrote:
>
> Thank you Brad,
>
> Finally, this issue makes it to the LBO mailing list! Yes, on this topic,
> the silence has been deafening out there.
>

The rage Brad feels is felt by many -- and is part of the reason the
issue only intermittently appears on this or other left lists. We did
not feel this same choked rage during the Vietnam War because we were
_doing_ something about it. Our rage found outlet in action.

Carrol

                The Earth is Closing on Us
                        Mahmoud Darwish

The earth is closing on us, pushing us through the last passage, and
  we tear off our limbs to pass through.
The earth is squeezng us. I wishe were its wheat so we could die
  and live again. I wish the earth was our mother
So she'd be kind to us. I wish we were picturesd on the rocks for our
  dreams to carry
As mirrors. We saw the faces of those to be killed by the last of us in
  the last defence of the soul.
We cried over their children's feast. We saw the faces of those who'll
  throw our children
Out of the windows of this last space. Our star will hang up mirrors.
Where should we go after the last frontiers? Where should the birds
  go after the last sky?
Where should the plants sleep after the last breath of air? We will
  write our names with scarlet steam.
We will cut off the hand of the song to be finished by our flesh.
We will die here, here in the last passage. Here and here our blood
  will plant its olive tree.

------
[Note: autumn in the next poem should be seen as the autumn of the seige
of Beirut.]

                We are Entitled to Love Autumn
                        Mahmud Dawish

We are entitled to love the end of this autumn and ask:
Is there room for another autumn in the field to rest our bodies like
  coal?
An autumn lowering its leaves like gold. I wish we were fig leaves
  I wish we were an abanadoned plant
To witness the change of the seasons. I wish we didn't say goodbye
  to the south of the eye so as to ask what
Our fathers had asked when they flew on the tip of the spear. Poetry
  and God's name will be merciful to us.
We are entitled to dryu the nights of lovely women, and talk
  about what
Shortens the night for two strangers waiting for the north to reach
  the compass.
An autumn. Indeed we are entitled to smell the scent of this autumn,
  to ask the night for a dream.
Does a dream fall sick like the dreamers? An autumn, an autumn.
  Can a people be born on the guillotine?
We are entitled to die the way we want to die. Let the land hid in an
  ear of wheat.

----

Both poems from _Victims of a Map_, by Samih Al-Qasim, Adonis, & Mahmud
Darwish, London: Al Saqi Books, 1984. Translations by Abdullah
al-Udhari.

P.S. While I have done it myself in the past on other maillists, I have
decided it is probably not best policy to put the names of list members
in subject lines.