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Hi Nancy and Peter,
    I admit I am not following your argument completely but came across your
discussion of Eliot's championing of women.  I write on the work of a British
modernist Mary Butts who died in 1937 and who wrote a novel called _Armed with
Madness_ ,which she claimed happened to be a parallel to Eliot's _Waste Land_.
She intimates that they were working out the same ideas at the same time.  Her
journals have only recently been released to the Beinecke, but shortly before her
sudden death, Eliot had requested submission of her short stories for an edition
he wanted to publish.  In the early twenties Butts believed that Eliot disliked
her and her work, or so she said, but he saw beyond his personal dislike for her
(she was completely wild and addicted to opium) to appreciate the quality of her
writing, a writing that is intensely poetic itself.  I see her as something of a
female Eliot.  Not as formally educated as he, she nevertheless had been tutored
by her father as a young girl, read voraciously, knew Greek and Latin and
classical literature, and wrote very much along the lines of much of what Eliot
wrote.  Of course, many issues crossed over in most modernist work, but Butts even
has a poem that echoes Eliot's "Hollow Men" called "Thinking of Saints and of
Petronius Arbiter."
     There is so much work still to be done on her that I think the connection and
influence of one on the other might be something to pursue.
      Just thought I'd throw this out.  I don't mean to get into the middle of
your argument.
     Best,
     Roslyn Reso Foy
     Dept. of English
     University of New Orleans
Nancy Gish wrote:

> There is a great deal of work much more recent than Howarth--which I have
> read.  My point is that I did not forget her; I did not discuss her.  I wasn't
> talking about her.  You, apparently, were.  By all means do.  I am not
> obliged to and it has nothing to do with my point, as it was already made.
>
> Did you forget Ottoline and Mary Hutchinson and Virginia Woolf or were
> they just not part of your point any more than of mine?  Do you mean I am
> obliged to mention every woman he supported in any way if I mention even
> one?  I am, again, at a loss about your point.
> Nancy
>
> Date sent:              Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:12:33 -0800
> Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
> From:                   Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject:                Re: Eliot and Women
> To:                     [log in to unmask]
>
> Alright, consider the fact that he got published and promoted
> her SAVANAROLA for her in the late twenties, does that not
> count? Consider that her SAVONAROLA had a strong general
> influence on his MURDER IN THE CATHEDRAL, and a very
> specific influence in his having Beckett throw open the doors
> of the Cathderal to let in the martyrers after the manner of
> her Savonarola.
>
> You might wish to consult Howarth's NOTES ON SOME FIGURES
> for the finer details, including how her poetry had
> certain characteristics that matched Eliot's.
>
> Dr. Peter C. Montgomery
> Dept. of English
> Camosun College
> 3100 Foul Bay Rd.
> Victoria, BC CANADA V8P 5J2
> [log in to unmask]
> www.camosun.bc.ca/~peterm
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nancy Gish [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 4:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Eliot and Women
>
> How about her?  He had a complicated relation with her and a very intense
> one.  I did not name her because she was not one of his literary group
> that he helped or hindered--the set I commented on.  I know her poetry
> mattered to him.  I think it is not at all clear how. Nancy
>
> Date sent:              Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:31:19 -0800
> Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
> <[log in to unmask]>
> From:                   Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject:                Re: Eliot and Women
> To:                     [log in to unmask]
>
> How about his mother?
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nancy Gish
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: 12/1/02 9:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Eliot and Women
>
> I've no idea who you mean but I'm naming the ones I intend.
> Nancy
>
> Date sent:              Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:10:43 -0800
> Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
> <[log in to unmask]>
> From:                   Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject:                Eliot and Women
> To:                     [log in to unmask]
>
> From: Nancy Gish
> Eliot clearly liked women; he said at one
> point to Aiken (I think) that he was very dependent on their company. He
> had women friends all his life and in some cases was very emotionally
> intimate with them--Mary Trevelyan for example.  But that is quite
> separate from his belief that with rare exceptions they could not write
> poetry and his preference for keeping them out of publication.  His
> championing of Marianne Moore and--at one time but not consistently--
> Djuna Barnes are presented by him as clear exceptions to a general rule.
> =========================================== I think you're forgetting
> someone.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter.