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I'm hardly shocked, but it has been a very long time since such language
was treated as acceptable, in public at least.  People have lost their jobs
for infinitely less.  So I really don't think something from the early 60s says
anything about this, and anyway, it was that kind of attitude that helped
fuel the Civil Rights movement, which did take place half a century ago.

Gunnar, do you really think I could have lived all my life in America and not
have heard and read such language?  That I could be shocked at it?
Fortunately, most people now regard it as unacceptable.

Why a furore?  Because it was hateful language.
Nancy



Date sent:              Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:42:24 +0100
Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum." <[log in to unmask]>
From:                   Gunnar Jauch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:                Re: Some language is beyond the pale
To:                     [log in to unmask]

am 9.12.2002 23:07 Uhr schrieb Nancy Gish unter
[log in to unmask]:

> Peter,
>
> This is the most offensive message ever posted on this list in the time
> I have been on it.  Have you no idea what you are saying?  Do you think
> that ludicrous icon masks or mitigates it?
>
> I hope I am not the only one who finds this astonishingly unacceptable.
>
> Nancy
>
>
> Date sent:              Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:46:37 -0800
> Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
> <[log in to unmask]> From:                   Peter Montgomery
> <[log in to unmask]> Subject:                Re: Watch out for the
> economy To:                     [log in to unmask]
>
> From: John Ryskamp
>
> You should worry less about differences between parties and start
> worrying that your economy, like the American, is about to fall apart.
> Here in California the State budget deficit is publicly stated to be $21
> billion. But do you know what the whisper number is?  SIXTY billion, and
> growing rapidly. Come about February you will see how bad it really is.
> I suppose a lot of people on this thread are tenured professors--well,
> these are the folks they're talking about cutting here, even at
> prestigious Berkeley. You shouldn't get caught unaware by this--you're
> never really told how bad it is going to get, you have to ferret it out
> of people who have reason to know how revenues and sales are really
> doing: California is a disaster area, and if California sinks, America
> drowns (and Britain never had a chance). Start agitating for rights that
> will keep you in your housing regardless of what happens to the economic
> situation or your own economic situation.   Enuf bout Eliot--aux armes!
> ================================================

> > Yes Mark. And what do you
> > do for an encore? Put on black face paint with white lips, and roll
> > around on your bum?
> >
> > ;->
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Peter


Dear Nancy,

why such a furore -- there's much worse than that (racism is as American
as apple pie):

Remember Earl Butz, Secretary of Agriculture in the Kennedy
administration? His dubious claim to fame was a statement overheard by a
newspaper reporter for which he had to step back from office:

"All the niggers need is loose shoes, a tight pussy and a warm place to
shit."


Sorry for shocking you:


Gunnar


PS:

Like Steve, I deplore Carrol's unfortunate comparison of the Israelis to
the Nazis:

Most analogies to the Shoah, the systematic, industrialized  butchering of
an ethnic group, are unwarranted and ludicrous since they tend to
trivialize unparalleled, horrendous deeds.