Dear Nancy,

I have to take objection to your statement that Pound 'rejected' the Conrad
quotation. Eliot rejected it, after Pound told him to do as he liked (see

I wonder why so people feel inclined to reinstate it.

Yours, Jennifer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Gish" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: TWL epigraph

> I think it is important that this epigraph was a substitution for the
> passage Pound rejected.  And it was added at the end, though the poem
> was not all written after the war.  Some of it was written "as early as
> 1914."  So the chronology matters here.  Whatever Eliot was doing with
> the Satyricon was added after "The Horror! The Horror!" was displaced
> when it was in its final stages.  That may well mean it was a reaction to
> the devastation of the war, especially since Eliot had just been reading
> Hermann Hesse.  I don't know when he first thought of using Conrad, of
> course, that was also included in the first draft of section I so it was
> war but pre-Vittoz and pre-Hesse.
> Nancy
> Date sent:              Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:52:01 -0700
> Send reply to:          "T. S. Eliot Discussion forum."
<[log in to unmask]>
> From:                   Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject:                Re: TWL epigraph
> To:                     [log in to unmask]
> Seems one needs to take into account the mood of Europe of the time.
> The devastation physically and morally of WWI created a very depressed
> view of the future, esp. given the implications of Versailles. WWI was
> supposedly the war to end all wars, yet the same old political bulls took
> over the running of the peace with the same old values. The decimated
> young generation of T.E. Lawrence and his lk felt betrayed. They thought
> they were fighting for a whole new regimen. Fat chance.
> Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gunnar Jauch [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 6:12 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: TWL epigraph
> am 25.10.2002 22:01 Uhr schrieb [log in to unmask] unter
> [log in to unmask]:
> If you think about the quote, the Sibyl is wasting away (in fact, she has
> no soul, and is dead already [but still there!]) and so is Trimalchio,
> just as the Roman Empire is falling around them.  TWL is full of dead and
> dying people who exist as Europe crumbles around them.
> You may be right, Michael.
> Perhaps Eliot foresaw the decline of our materialistic "culture" (isn't it
> ironic that he had to work for a bank?), a "culture" based on the moloch
> of money . Perhaps he merely didn't realize that this decline would take
> longer. All indications (ecological, financial and moral)  seem to be
> pointing towards a whirling vortex.
> Such a gratuitous use of violence we are seeing in the world  these days
> (9-11, Bali, Palestine, Chechnya, Moscow) would have been unthinkable some
> decades ago. And things tend to get worse: There is the leading world
> nation preparing for war, and there are several nations governed by
> ruthless criminal dictators with weapons for mass destruction. Up to now,
> they haven't used them --  that horrible, hardly imaginable scenario
> hasn't happened yet. But the notion of vast parts of a continent turned
> into a nuclear Waste Land is frighteningly near -- and nearly unbearable.
> And it will have an impact on everyone.
> Gunnar
> Moloch! Moloch! Robot apartments! invisible suburbs! skeleton treasuries!
> blind capitals! demonic industries! spectral nations! invincible
> madhouses! granite cocks! monstrous bombs!
> A.G., 1955