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Dear JP,

He also changed his stories many times on many things.  Maybe it 
seemed to have changed meaning later.  I also cannot remember where he 
said it, but as I was studying Eliot and mysticism at the time, I'm sure he 
did.
Nancy


Date sent:      	Thu, 23 May 2002 08:59:23 -0500
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From:           	"Earls, JP" <[log in to unmask]>
To:             	<[log in to unmask]>
Subject:        	RE: Milton, FQ (why OT?)

Dear Nancy,

I never encountered that statement by Eliot.  Lyndall Gordon bases her
claim for such an experience on the poem "Silence," which now is in Ricks'
_TSE: Inventions of the March Hare_ (18).  According to Gordon, this poem,
dated June 1910 records Eliot's first experience of "the stillness" which
he would "try all his life to recapture" (_Eliot's Early Years_ 15.). 
Reading it over now, it is pretty thin evidence. I happened on an article
by William James, published in February of the same year in _Journal of
Philosophy, Psychology and Scientific Methods_ which reports a mystical
experience he had, which gave "the sense of a tremendous *muchness*
suddenly revealed."  That Eliot may have constructed the experience
reported in "Silence" out of his reading is quite possible.    Possum is
as possum does. --JP

J. P. Earls, OSB
St. John's University 
Collegeville, MN 56321



-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Gish [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 12:38 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Milton, FQ (why OT?)


Dear JP,

I think I disagree here.  Somewhere Eliot said he did not ever have
mystical experience (though he seemed to have idealized it).  I do not
think he ever got past an intellectual understanding of John of the Cross
or of Julian of Norwich--he knew what the words meant but never knew it as
experience.  I think that not only because he said it but because I do not
think his work reveals that kind of experience.  The BN Rose Garden scene
may come nearest to such a "moment," but even that is truncated and leads
into nostalgia for recalled temporal desire. Nancy 





Date sent:      	Wed, 22 May 2002 14:50:57 -0500
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From:           	"Earls, JP" <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject:        	RE: Milton, FQ (why OT?)

Marcia:
BN II attempts to distinguish between two mystical experiences, one of
light (erhebung) and one of darkness.  Eliot attempts to demonstrate in
the course of  FQ how both the tormenting and the exalting experiences can
be brought together into the eternity of the same individual.  This
individual is Eliot, and the experiences are his, not those of some
depersonalized humanity.  His loves have put him into touch with both
torment and exaltation, as have his career and family relationships.  At
the end of LG, both the "rose" and the "tongues of flame" are brought
together in the "crowned knot of fire."

I know that associating each of these flowers with a particular individual
is a radical departure from FQ scholarship, but I think it's a fruitful
avenue to explore.



J. P. Earls, OSB
St. John's University 
Collegeville, MN 56321



-----Original Message-----
From: Marcia Karp [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Milton, FQ (why OT?)


J.P.

> > If it is possible to see the correspondences "faded song" = Vivienne;
> > Royal Rose = Emily Hale; spray of lilacs = Verdenal; then the personal
> > element here adds even more to its stature.

Rick P:

> Well, I see the possibilties for "faded song" and "lavender spray" but
> other than coming up with another name for "Royal Rose" how do you get
> Emily Hale for the rose?

J.P.

> It seems now accepted that the rose-garden scene in BN was inspired by
> the visit Eliot and Emily made to the garden at Burnt Norton estate
> during her visit to England (it was late August-early September '34 that
> Gordon places the visit to BN).  Why it is "royal" and capitalized I'm
> not guessing.  A similar passage occurs in _The Family Reunion_.

I'm lost.  Where does the poem point to the poet's private impulses?

M.