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Dear Jo=E3o,
=20
Thanks much for some beautiful and illuminating writing on FQ.  Where I
sense a disagreement between our views may be in whether E. is proposing
a natural or supernatural outcome.  You call it an "atemporal pattern."

=20
Can we say that FQ poses one ultimate question:  How does one move from
desire to love?  E. exposes the various failures of his own
life--career, family (father and mother), romantic love, perhaps even
mysticism, then proposes that it is precisely by embracing the
consequent suffering of these failures that he has passed/is
passing/will finally pass from desire through indifference to the
detachment that makes love possible.  Suffering, then, becomes a good
that purifies desire, and that will be inextricably united to desire
because it is through suffering that desire has become love--"the fire
and the rose are one." Of course, this implies that the suffering will
never be done away with.  The final pattern gives both the suffering and
the ecstasy their place, forever together in "the crowned knot of fire."
The passion of Christ is the center of the pattern; "passion" in both
senses as consuming love and consuming suffering.  As E. develops this
thought of the coming to love by means of suffering throughout FQ, he
weaves it together with history.  His personal insertion into this
pattern can never be complete until the entire process of history is
finished.  Note the end to DS V:
For most of us, this is the aim
Never here to be realised;
Who are only undefeated
Because we have gone on trying;
We, content at the last
If our temporal reversion nourish
(Not too far from the yew-tree)
The life of significant soil.

In other words, until the pattern is fully realized, he is "content" if
his efforts, feeble as they have been,  have enriched the life of the
world.  The mention of the yew-tree (standard, I am told, in Anglican
graveyards) I interpret as indicating his wish that his contribution be
known as both English and Christian.

All of the V's end with a movement toward realization beyond time.  In
EC it is a movement into the ocean of indifference with its "dark cold"
and "empty desolation."  In BN the movement toward eternity is oblique:
love looks like desire when it is experienced "in the aspect of time, /
Caught between un-being and being."  This indicates that in eternity
love is clearly itself.  For these reasons, I think he aiming at the
supernatural outcome, not an atemporal natural one.

This may be a fine point.  I suspect that E. is expecting to be
understood by his audience as Christian, at the same time that he is
speaking from a Hegelian view of history that would serve as well for an
Eastern understanding.  Is the Absolute natural or supernatural?

JP

-----Original Message-----
From: Jo=E3o Verg=EDlio Gallerani Cuter =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Burnt Norton V


JP,
=20
=20
Thanks a lot for your comments.=20
I think the first point to be considered is that not only poetry is
incapable of endurance. This is a problem concerning language as a whole
- be it poetical or not. Language is one of the many "appearances"
inside the flow of time. Meanings are produced, understood, interpreted,
reinterpreted and finally forgotten. In a sense, a meaning cannot be
remembered, since it will change continuously from time to time, and it
cannot be comunicated either, since it will be different from mind to
mind (the "bowl of rose-leaves"):

Words move, music moves
Only in time; but that which is only living=20
Can only die.

After speech, words fall into the darkness of silence. They are
swallowed by the river of time. That's why they always fail to capture
the atemporal pattern of human existence - the pattern that will give
sense to human experience as a whole. Words "try hard", no doubt:

Words strain,
crack and sometimes break, under the burden,
under the tension, slip, slide, perish,
Decay with imprecision, will not stay in place,
Will not stay still.

Only direct contact with this atemporal pattern can perform the task.
Words cannot take us there. Quite the contrary. It is only by getting
there that we can give full meaning to our faltering words

Only by the form, the pattern,
Can words or music reach
The stillness

The key to the Quartets, I think, lies in establishing a reasonable
interpretation to this atemporal "pattern", and I agree with you that it
must be looked for in the "agony and ecstasy", "life and death",
"perishing and coming-to-be" pattern of Nature (I capitalize to make the
word encompass not only dogs, oak-trees and stones, but our mental and
social life as well). Every single instant of time is a window open to
this pattern: any "movement" must be seen as a "detail of the pattern",
as he says.=20
Now I am convinced that this abstract reflection on Nature is linked to
a very concrete conception of what is to be considered as "true
happiness", as opposed to false, illusory happiness in life. It has to
do with the opposition between Desire and Love (I capitalize to remember
that these words have both a personal and a "cosmical" (arghhhh) sense
in the Quartets):

Desire itself is movement
Not in itself desirable;
etc.

But I have spoken too much today. It is 4:30 in Brazil, and I must go to
bed.
Have a nice day.
=20
Jo=E3o
=20


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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D844425215-12012002><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><STRONG>Dear <FONT color=3D#000080><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Jo=E3o</FONT></FONT>,</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>=

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D844425215-12012002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D844425215-12012002>Thanks much for some beautiful and =
illuminating writing=20
on FQ.&nbsp; Where I sense a disagreement between our views&nbsp;may be=20
in&nbsp;whether E. is proposing a natural or supernatural outcome.&nbsp; =
You=20
call it an "atemporal pattern."&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D844425215-12012002></SPAN></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D844425215-12012002>Can we say that FQ poses one ultimate =
question:&nbsp;=20
How does one move from desire to love?&nbsp; E. exposes the various =
failures of=20
his own life--career, family (father and mother), romantic love, perhaps =
even=20
mysticism, then proposes that it is precisely by embracing the =
consequent=20
suffering of these failures that&nbsp;he has passed/is passing/will =
finally=20
pass&nbsp;from desire through indifference to the detachment that makes =
love=20
possible.&nbsp; Suffering, then, becomes a good that purifies desire, =
and that=20
will be inextricably united to desire because it is through suffering =
that=20
desire has become love--"the fire and the rose&nbsp;are one." Of course, =
this=20
implies that the suffering&nbsp;will never be done away with.&nbsp; The =
final=20
pattern gives both the suffering and the ecstasy their place, forever =
together=20
in "the crowned knot of fire."&nbsp; The passion of Christ is the center =
of the=20
pattern; "passion" in both senses as consuming love and consuming=20
suffering.&nbsp; As E. develops this thought of the coming to =
love&nbsp;by means=20
of suffering throughout FQ, he weaves it together with history.&nbsp; =
His=20
personal insertion into this pattern can never be complete until the =
entire=20
process of history is finished.&nbsp; Note the end to DS=20
V:</SPAN></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><SPAN class=3D844425215-12012002>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>For most of us, this is =
the=20
aim<BR>Never here to be realised;<BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D844425215-12012002>W</SPAN>ho are only=20
undefeated<BR></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Because=20
we have gone on trying;<BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>We,=20
content at the last<BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>If our=20
temporal reversion nourish<BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>(Not=20
too far from the yew-tree)<BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
life of significant soil.</FONT></P>
<P><SPAN class=3D844425215-12012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>In other=20
words, until the pattern is fully realized, he is "content" if his =
efforts,=20
feeble as they have been, &nbsp;have enriched the life of the =
world.&nbsp; The=20
mention of the yew-tree (standard, I am told, in Anglican graveyards) I=20
interpret as indicating&nbsp;his wish that his contribution&nbsp;be =
known as=20
both English and Christian.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=3D844425215-12012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>All of=20
the V's end with a movement toward realization beyond time.&nbsp; In EC =
it is a=20
movement into the ocean of indifference with its "dark cold" and "empty=20
desolation."&nbsp; In BN&nbsp;the movement toward eternity&nbsp;is =
oblique: love=20
looks like desire when it is experienced </FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D844425215-12012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>"in the aspect of=20
time, / Caught between un-being and being."&nbsp; This indicates that in =

eternity&nbsp;love is clearly itself.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think =
he aiming=20
at the supernatural outcome, not an atemporal&nbsp;natural=20
one.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=3D844425215-12012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>This may=20
be a fine point.&nbsp; I suspect that E. is expecting to be understood =
by his=20
audience as Christian, at the same time that he is speaking from a =
Hegelian view=20
of history that would serve as well for an Eastern understanding.&nbsp; =
Is the=20
Absolute natural or supernatural?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=3D844425215-12012002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>JP</FONT></SPAN></P></SPAN></STRONG></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jo=E3o Verg=EDlio =
Gallerani=20
  Cuter [mailto:[log in to unmask]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
January 12,=20
  2002 12:35 AM<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Burnt=20
  Norton V<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>JP,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks a lot for your comments. =
</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think the first point to be =
considered is that=20
  not only poetry is incapable of endurance. This is a problem =
concerning=20
  language as a whole - be it poetical or not. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =

  size=3D2>Language is one of the many "appearances" inside the flow =
of&nbsp;time.=20
  Meanings are produced, understood, interpreted, reinterpreted and =
finally=20
  forgotten. In a sense, a meaning cannot be remembered, since it will =
change=20
  continuously from time to time, and it&nbsp;cannot be comunicated =
either,=20
  since it will be different from mind to mind (the "bowl of=20
  rose-leaves"):</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Words move, music =
moves</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Only in time; but that which is =
only living=20
    </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can only =
die.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>After speech, words fall =
into the=20
  darkness of silence. They are swallowed by the river of time. =
</FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2>That's why they always fail to capture the =
atemporal pattern=20
  of human existence&nbsp;- the pattern that will&nbsp;</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>give sense to human experience as a whole. Words "try hard", =
no=20
  doubt:</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Words =
strain,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>crack and sometimes =
break, under the=20
    burden,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>under the tension, slip, =
slide,=20
    perish,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Decay with imprecision, =
will not stay=20
    in place,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Will not stay=20
  still.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Only direct contact with =
this atemporal=20
  pattern can perform the task. Words cannot take us there. Quite the =
contrary.=20
  It is only by getting there that we can give full meaning to our =
faltering=20
  words</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Only by the form, the=20
    pattern,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can words or music =
reach</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The =
stillness</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The key to the Quartets, I =
think, lies in=20
  establishing a reasonable interpretation to this atemporal "pattern", =
and I=20
  agree with you that it must be&nbsp;looked for&nbsp;in the "agony and=20
  ecstasy", "life and death", "perishing and coming-to-be" pattern of =
Nature (I=20
  capitalize to make the word encompass not only dogs, oak-trees and =
stones, but=20
  our mental and social life as well). Every single&nbsp;instant of time =
is a=20
  window open to this pattern: any "movement" must be seen as a "detail =
of the=20
  pattern", as he says. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now I am convinced that =
this abstract=20
  reflection on Nature is linked to a very concrete conception of what =
is to be=20
  considered as "true happiness", as opposed to false, illusory =
happiness in=20
  life. It has to do with the opposition between Desire and Love (I =
capitalize=20
  to remember that these words have both a personal and a "cosmical" =
(arghhhh)=20
  sense in the Quartets):</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Desire itself is =
movement</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Not in itself =
desirable;</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>etc.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But I have spoken too much =
today. It is=20
  4:30 in Brazil, and I must go to bed.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Have a nice =
day.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jo=E3o</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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