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--part1_157.4c2c7f.28c40ffd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/2/01 5:30:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: > The comment suggests that in Eliot's day and age, those Jews that had their > artistic talents being noticed by the cultural elite probably felt first > and foremost Jews or were artistically concerned with their Jewish > identity. > > Who did you have in mind? Stephen Spender? If people don't read Isaac Rosenberg or Celan, even today, because they're stereotyped as "Jewish poets," and this sets off an avoidance reaction for many non-Jews, then--and I think this is actually true--artists live in another world and possibly a better and less uptight world. It didn't seem to bother Eliot to have a Jewish publisher (Rodker) or to read Rosenberg, a Jewish poet. My sense of the whole thing is that minorities are routinely put down as "outsiders," which is just a way of putting them down. That's how the power-control system works. When it gets so extreme that "outsider" slides over into "foreigner," and "foreigner" is applied to people who've lived in a country for generations, then it's really insane. And when a person as intelligent as you can take something as ridiculous as this seriously...it's pretty sad. How do you explain your own identity? Are you Dutch first? a Christian first? an atheist first? Are you really positive that every Dutch non-Jew would give exactly the same answer you'd give, and have exactly your priorities? Are you really positive you know exactly what answers every Dutch Jew would give, or that they'd all give the same answers? pat --part1_157.4c2c7f.28c40ffd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial Narrow" LANG="0"><B>In a message dated 9/2/01 5:30:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>[log in to unmask] writes: <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The comment suggests that in Eliot's day and age, those Jews that had their <BR>artistic talents being noticed by the cultural elite probably felt first <BR>and foremost Jews or were artistically concerned with their Jewish <BR>identity. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial Narrow" LANG="0"><B>Who did you have in mind? Stephen Spender? <BR> <BR>If people don't read Isaac Rosenberg or Celan, even today, because they're <BR>stereotyped as "Jewish poets," and this sets off an avoidance reaction for <BR>many non-Jews, then--and I think this is actually true--artists live in <BR>another world and possibly a better and less uptight world. It didn't seem to <BR>bother Eliot to have a Jewish publisher (Rodker) or to read Rosenberg, a <BR>Jewish poet. <BR> <BR>My sense of the whole thing is that minorities are routinely put down as <BR>"outsiders," which is just a way of putting them down. That's how the <BR>power-control system works. When it gets so extreme that "outsider" slides <BR>over into "foreigner," and "foreigner" is applied to people who've lived in a <BR>country for generations, then it's really insane. And when a person as <BR>intelligent as you can take something as ridiculous as this seriously...it's <BR>pretty sad. <BR> <BR>How do you explain your own identity? Are you Dutch first? a Christian <BR>first? an atheist first? Are you really positive that every Dutch non-Jew <BR>would give exactly the same answer you'd give, and have exactly your <BR>priorities? Are you really positive you know exactly what answers every Dutch <BR>Jew would give, or that they'd all give the same answers? <BR> <BR>pat</B></FONT></HTML> --part1_157.4c2c7f.28c40ffd_boundary--