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There are plenty of cultural groups who keep their identity intact no matter
in which country they live and what languages they speak. I think this is
what was being referred to. And I think it was generally viewed that Jews
often did not really mix with the societies they lived in, even if they
spoke the same language. This is an understandable point of view (at least
to me), even if in this day and age there are probably far more Jews who are
more American, Russian or Israeli than that they are Jew. The comment
suggests that in Eliot's day and age, those Jews that had their artistic
talents being noticed by the cultural elite probably felt first and foremost
Jews or were artistically concerned with their Jewish identity.

Arwin
  -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
  Van: [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]Namens [log in to unmask]
  Verzonden: zondag 2 september 2001 22:41
  Aan: [log in to unmask]
  Onderwerp: Re: Eliot, Wagner and Julius


  In a message dated 9/2/01 4:21:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
  [log in to unmask] writes:



    ? If the latter, then Eliot and Wagner do appear to be sharing a
premiss -
    if you speak a European language as a foreigner because your real
identity
    is fundamentally different, then such a deeply personal act as writing
    poetry in that language must involve hard work indeed - and achieving a
    poem can look like a miracle.


  How can one speak English as a foreigner if one is born in England and
  English is one's native language?

  A friend of mine is infuriated because her two children, native-born
  Americans who don't even speak Spanish, were transferred in school to
classes
  taught in Spanish, and filled with Spanish-speaking children who didn't
know
  English. The classes are supposed to "teach English to Hispanic children."

  I guess some moron saw the last name (Rodriguez) and didn't stop to think
  that plenty of people named Rodriguez are American citizens who've been in
  this country for generations and do in fact speak English. They even speak
  English as their native tongue.

  pat

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D418532021-02092001>There=20
are plenty of cultural groups who keep their identity intact no matter =
in which=20
country they live and what language<STRONG>s</STRONG> they speak. I =
think this=20
is what was being referred to. And I think it was generally viewed that =
Jews=20
often did not really mix with the societies they lived in, even if they =
spoke=20
the same language. This is an understandable point of view (at least to =
me),=20
even if in this day and age there are probably far more Jews who are =
more=20
American, Russian or Israeli than that they are Jew. The comment =
suggests that=20
in Eliot's day and age, those Jews that had their artistic talents being =
noticed=20
by the cultural elite probably felt first and foremost Jews or were =
artistically=20
concerned with their Jewish identity. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D418532021-02092001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D418532021-02092001>Arwin</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----<BR><B>Van:</B>=20
  [log in to unmask] =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>Namens=20
  </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> zondag 2 september 2001=20
  22:41<BR><B>Aan:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> Re: =
Eliot,=20
  Wagner and Julius<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT =
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
  face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>In a =
message dated=20
  9/2/01 4:21:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>[log in to unmask] =
writes:=20
  <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">? If the latter, then Eliot and Wagner do appear to be =
sharing a=20
    premiss - <BR>if you speak a European language as a foreigner =
because your=20
    real identity <BR>is fundamentally different, then such a deeply =
personal=20
    act as writing <BR>poetry in that language must involve hard work =
indeed -=20
    and achieving a <BR>poem can look like a miracle.=20
  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Arial Narrow" =
lang=3D0 size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B><BR>How can one speak English as a foreigner =
if one is=20
  born in England and <BR>English is one's native language? <BR><BR>A =
friend of=20
  mine is infuriated because her two children, native-born <BR>Americans =
who=20
  don't even speak Spanish, were transferred in school to classes =
<BR>taught in=20
  Spanish, and filled with Spanish-speaking children who didn't know=20
  <BR>English. The classes are supposed to "teach English to Hispanic =
children."=20
  <BR><BR>I guess some moron saw the last name (Rodriguez) and didn't =
stop to=20
  think <BR>that plenty of people named Rodriguez are American citizens =
who've=20
  been in <BR>this country for generations and do in fact speak English. =
They=20
  even speak <BR>English as their native tongue. <BR><BR>pat=20
</B></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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