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Dear dear Pat,

Don't you know me better than this by now? Who I have in mind isn't
relevant. The artists identity as persons are completely irrelevant here.
The point was that the artists as artists were Jewish. It is not in the
least uncommon for artists to be concerned with their own identities in art.
And what doesn't help either is that, probably always, such poets will have
had an easier time getting published because others are curious, not about
good art, but about identities of people who are perceived as being
different from the norm.

I was trying to explain what Eliot was thinking, not what I was thinking,
when he singled out Rosenberg for this exceptional praise. Do you have any
better suggestions?

Arwin
  -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
  Van: [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]Namens [log in to unmask]
  Verzonden: maandag 3 september 2001 0:43
  Aan: [log in to unmask]
  Onderwerp: Re: Eliot, Wagner and Julius


  In a message dated 9/2/01 5:30:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
  [log in to unmask] writes:



    The comment suggests that in Eliot's day and age, those Jews that had
their
    artistic talents being noticed by the cultural elite probably felt first
    and foremost Jews or were artistically concerned with their Jewish
    identity.



  Who did you have in mind? Stephen Spender?

  If people don't read Isaac Rosenberg or Celan, even today, because they're
  stereotyped as "Jewish poets," and this sets off an avoidance reaction for
  many non-Jews, then--and I think this is actually true--artists live in
  another world and possibly a better and less uptight world. It didn't seem
to
  bother Eliot to have a Jewish publisher (Rodker) or to read Rosenberg, a
  Jewish poet.

  My sense of the whole thing is that minorities are routinely put down as
  "outsiders," which is just a way of putting them down.  That's how the
  power-control  system works. When it gets so extreme that "outsider"
slides
  over into "foreigner," and "foreigner" is applied to people who've lived
in a
  country for generations, then it's really insane. And when a person as
  intelligent as you can take something as ridiculous as this
seriously...it's
  pretty sad.

  How do you explain your own identity?  Are you Dutch first? a Christian
  first? an atheist first? Are you really positive that every Dutch non-Jew
  would give exactly the same answer you'd give, and have exactly your
  priorities? Are you really positive you know exactly what answers every
Dutch
  Jew would give, or that they'd all give the same answers?

  pat

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D887192507-03092001>Dear=20
dear Pat, </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D887192507-03092001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D887192507-03092001>Don't=20
you know me better than this by now? Who I have in mind isn't relevant. =
The=20
artists identity as persons are completely irrelevant here. The point =
was that=20
the artists <U>as artists</U> were Jewish.&nbsp;It is not in the least =
uncommon=20
for&nbsp;artists to be concerned with their own identities in =
art.&nbsp;And what=20
doesn't help either is that, probably always, such poets will have had =
an easier=20
time getting published because&nbsp;others are curious, not about good =
art, but=20
about identities of people who are <U>perceived </U>as being different =
from the=20
norm.&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D887192507-03092001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D887192507-03092001>I was=20
trying to explain what Eliot was thinking, not what I was thinking, when =
he=20
singled out Rosenberg for this exceptional praise. Do you have any =
better=20
suggestions?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D887192507-03092001></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D887192507-03092001>Arwin</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----<BR><B>Van:</B>=20
  [log in to unmask] =
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]<B>Namens=20
  </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> maandag 3 september 2001=20
  0:43<BR><B>Aan:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> Re: =
Eliot,=20
  Wagner and Julius<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT =
face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT=20
  face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>In a =
message dated=20
  9/2/01 5:30:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>[log in to unmask] =
writes:=20
  <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
lang=3D0 size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">The comment suggests that in Eliot's day and age, those =
Jews=20
    that had their <BR>artistic talents being noticed by the cultural =
elite=20
    probably felt first <BR>and foremost Jews or were artistically =
concerned=20
    with their Jewish <BR>identity. </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3DArial lang=3D0=20
    size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
  face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>Who =
did you have in=20
  mind? Stephen Spender? <BR><BR>If people don't read Isaac Rosenberg or =
Celan,=20
  even today, because they're <BR>stereotyped as "Jewish poets," and =
this sets=20
  off an avoidance reaction for <BR>many non-Jews, then--and I think =
this is=20
  actually true--artists live in <BR>another world and possibly a better =
and=20
  less uptight world. It didn't seem to <BR>bother Eliot to have a =
Jewish=20
  publisher (Rodker) or to read Rosenberg, a <BR>Jewish poet. <BR><BR>My =
sense=20
  of the whole thing is that minorities are routinely put down as=20
  <BR>"outsiders," which is just a way of putting them down. =
&nbsp;That's how=20
  the <BR>power-control &nbsp;system works. When it gets so extreme that =

  "outsider" slides <BR>over into "foreigner," and "foreigner" is =
applied to=20
  people who've lived in a <BR>country for generations, then it's really =
insane.=20
  And when a person as <BR>intelligent as you can take something as =
ridiculous=20
  as this seriously...it's <BR>pretty sad. <BR><BR>How do you explain =
your own=20
  identity? &nbsp;Are you Dutch first? a Christian <BR>first? an atheist =
first?=20
  Are you really positive that every Dutch non-Jew <BR>would give =
exactly the=20
  same answer you'd give, and have exactly your <BR>priorities? Are you =
really=20
  positive you know exactly what answers every Dutch <BR>Jew would give, =
or that=20
  they'd all give the same answers? &nbsp; <BR><BR>pat</B></FONT>=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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