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Rick,

The small part of this that I've thought about is so limited. It's often sai=
d=20
that Shakespeare's English is that of the KJV. But so is Newton's English in=
=20
the Opticks. They all tend, for example, to use a simple and limited set of=20
names for colors: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet (or purple),=20
brown, grey, black, white. Not much of color names like russet, aureolin,=20
cerulean, chartreuse, magenta, etc.  The Hebrew edition of the OT has=20
something like 12 different names for varieties of red, and the KJV=20
translators reduce them all to just plain "red."=20

Of course there's much more to a language than just how colors are=20
identified, and Nancy is probably the better person to answer your main=20
question.=20

On Proven=E7al, I thought it  was closer to French than Italian, but not sur=
e.=20
Pound was very interested in the Proven=E7al poets, and translated some of=20
them. But I don't know if he wrote much about the language per se. All the=20
Romance languages are supposed to have developed from late Latin, esp. the=20
late Latin of the lower classes.  This is maybe the place to mention that th=
e=20
Satyricon is supposed to be one of the few surviving texts where one gets=20
good examples of lower class speech, in this case at the time of Nero. So at=
=20
least in Eliot's day one had the irony of a book that certainly fit the=20
censorship criteria for an "indecent" book, yet it also has scholarly (or=20
"redeeming literary") values. Or the other irony that the oldest surviving=20
European novel is an obscene book.

Maybe Rick P. can find some introductory material on how the Romance=20
languages, including Proven=E7al, developed from Latin. My impression is tha=
t=20
there's a consensus that this is their source, but it's not always clear how=
=20
the "development" took place.

pat
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In a message dated 3/18/01 1:23:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask]
writes:


> Pat:
> =20
> Was Shakespeare's "language", as opposed to the English language, a refine=
d=20
> version of the English vernacular?  How about "King James Version" English=
?=20
>  Dante's "language" was a refined version of the Italian vernacular of the=
=20
> time.  Another question for the list, where does Provencal fit into all=20
> this?  Provencal, I think, differs significantly from either 13th century=20
> or 21st century Italian.  Dante's lyric tradition was troubadour which is=20
> Provencal.
> =20
> Rick Seddon
> McIntosh, NM, USA
>=20



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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial Narrow" LANG=3D"0"><B>Rick,
<BR>
<BR>The small part of this that I've thought about is so limited. It's often=
 said=20
<BR>that Shakespeare's English is that of the KJV. But so is Newton's Englis=
h in=20
<BR>the Opticks. They all tend, for example, to use a simple and limited set=
 of=20
<BR>names for colors: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet (or purple),=20
<BR>brown, grey, black, white. Not much of color names like russet, aureolin=
,=20
<BR>cerulean, chartreuse, magenta, etc. &nbsp;The Hebrew edition of the OT h=
as=20
<BR>something like 12 different names for varieties of red, and the KJV=20
<BR>translators reduce them all to just plain "red."=20
<BR>
<BR>Of course there's much more to a language than just how colors are=20
<BR>identified, and Nancy is probably the better person to answer your main=20
<BR>question.=20
<BR>
<BR>On Proven=E7al, I thought it &nbsp;was closer to French than Italian, bu=
t not sure.=20
<BR>Pound was very interested in the Proven=E7al poets, and translated some=20=
of=20
<BR>them. But I don't know if he wrote much about the language per se. All t=
he=20
<BR>Romance languages are supposed to have developed from late Latin, esp. t=
he=20
<BR>late Latin of the lower classes. &nbsp;This is maybe the place to mentio=
n that the=20
<BR>Satyricon is supposed to be one of the few surviving texts where one get=
s=20
<BR>good examples of lower class speech, in this case at the time of Nero. S=
o at=20
<BR>least in Eliot's day one had the irony of a book that certainly fit the=20
<BR>censorship criteria for an "indecent" book, yet it also has scholarly (o=
r=20
<BR>"redeeming literary") values. Or the other irony that the oldest survivi=
ng=20
<BR>European novel is an obscene book.
<BR>
<BR>Maybe Rick P. can find some introductory material on how the Romance=20
<BR>languages, including Proven=E7al, developed from Latin. My impression is=
 that=20
<BR>there's a consensus that this is their source, but it's not always clear=
 how=20
<BR>the "development" took place.
<BR>
<BR>pat
<BR>---------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>In a message dated 3/18/01 1:23:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [log in to unmask]
com=20
<BR>writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0"></B>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Pat:
<BR>=20
<BR>Was Shakespeare's "language", as opposed to the English language, a refi=
ned=20
<BR>version of the English vernacular? &nbsp;How about "King James Version"=20=
English?=20
<BR>&nbsp;Dante's "language" was a refined version of the Italian vernacular=
 of the=20
<BR>time. &nbsp;Another question for the list, where does Provencal fit into=
 all=20
<BR>this? &nbsp;Provencal, I think, differs significantly from either 13th c=
entury=20
<BR>or 21st century Italian. &nbsp;Dante's lyric tradition was troubadour wh=
ich is=20
<BR>Provencal.
<BR>=20
<BR>Rick Seddon
<BR>McIntosh, NM, USA
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial Narrow" LANG=3D"0"><B>
<BR></B></FONT></HTML>

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