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Dear Chrisopher,

I'm not sure where the questions are that you want  me to answer, and in some 
cases I'm not sure what the question is. But I'll have a try at it.
----------------------------
In a message dated 3/17/01 3:21:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
[log in to unmask] writes:


> Dear Pat,
> I want to praise your pugnacious willingness to pursue an Eliot lead as
> far as possible, but I feel a need also to demur against several lines of
> inquiry you pursue, especially those which have surfaced recently on the
> list.  At the beginning of the "La Figlia" thread, for example, you
> speculate about the (sub)conscious flows operating in Eliot's early poems, 
> > On the five Eliot poems I'm writing about, I'm 
> > fairly sure that just about every image leads back to the Commedia. Or, 
> to 
> > put it the other way, he could have started with some image in Commedia, 
> > free-associated on that image, and come up with a corresponding image in 
> one 
> > of the five poems.   I'm not sure if he does that with most or all of his 
> > early poems, although to a lesser extent. 
> yet this description seems to apply more to your own method rather than
> Eliot's, despite the garbled syntax of the last sentence (or what would
> seem garbled to those unfamiliar with an abbreviated American idiom).
> Most of the time I enjoy the aggressive bullishness you exhibit, but far
> too often you seem stuck in a rut with thick blinders on--for example,
> > I'm especially not sure about 
> > La Figlia, though it's having an Italian title  does make one wonder if 
> it's 
> > some image or other from Dante.
>      I may be speaking for other list lurkers when I say sometimes this
> Dantesque obsession distorts your view of TSE's productions in their own
> realm.  


Could you clarify the following statement, particularly its

> so-called "apocryphal" or Tennysonian gestures, at least for those of us
> who have not yet had time to consult your book?
> > I said we needed this assumption to understand the Ulysses 
> > episode (which is also supposed to be apocryphal), or what Eliot did with 
> the 
> > Ulysses episode.
> 

I meant that Wicksteed, in annotating the Ulysses episode, regards it as 
apocryphal, probably because of the mismatch with the Odyssey (where Ulysses 
doesn't drown). Your question sounds as if you thought that by "apocryphal"I 
mean "Tennysonian," and that wasn't the case. What Eliot did with Dante's 
Ulysses episode? He said he used it as a foundation for part IV of TWL.

I will need canto and line numbers too from _Purgatorio_  (whether from

> TSE's beloved Temple Classics edition or some other) before I can feel
> comfortable absorbing the effect of your contention that
> > Manto is the legendary founder of Mantua, the city where Virgil was born. 
> In 
> > the Commedia, Virgil stays with Dante until they come to Mantua, and then 
> > can't go any further. I took this to be a fancy way of saying that we're 
> all 
> > limited by the conditions of our birth. This in turn leads back to 
> Dante's 
> > compassionate treatment of Virgil. Although Virgil is irredeemable, this 
> > isn't because he's a bad person. It was just his destiny to be born in 
> the 
> > wrong time and place.
> Since when is Mantua on Mount Purgatory?  

It isn't, and I didn't say that it was. Virgil's last words to Dante are 
Purg. 27.126-42, although Dante doesn't seem to realize Virgil is no longer 
with him until Purg 30.46.51. He's brought Dante as far as the earthly 
paradise, and Mantua is introduced as Virgil's birthplace in Purg. 6 and 18. 

We can all appreciate the

> superficial largesse of your PC conclusions, even in spite of the
> judgmental suppositions they preserve a precarious balance on, but you'll
> have to speak more persuasively to convince us that Dante is _the_ major
> influence on TSE, especially in the early poems.  Do you really believe
> that the crysalis of _He Do the Police in Different Voices_  eventually
> metamorphosed into a simple extended dialogue between the Fisher King and 
> his Queen?  

Actually, I've suggested there are four speakers in the poem. 


I trust you'll take my queries in the proper spirit and reply

> in due time.  Until then, I remain
> Questioningly yours,
> Chris Tidwell
> 
> 

Actually, I'm not certain what spirit inspired your post, though  if you want 
to call it  a "proper" spirit, that's OK.  I remember you from the modernism 
list, and if you're Marcia's friend from BU, I believe I met you last year at 
the TSE Society meeting. As our interests seem very dissimilar, I could 
understand at least in a general way why you'd not be sympathetic to anything 
I had to say. But this is too mundane to  seem worth your getting overwrought 
about. Why don't you, instead, just clarify your own point of view?

pat 







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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial Narrow" LANG="0"><B>Dear Chrisopher,
<BR>
<BR>I'm not sure where the questions are that you want &nbsp;me to answer, and in some 
<BR>cases I'm not sure what the question is. But I'll have a try at it.
<BR>----------------------------
<BR>In a message dated 3/17/01 3:21:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
<BR>[log in to unmask] writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Dear Pat,
<BR>I want to praise your pugnacious willingness to pursue an Eliot lead as
<BR>far as possible, but I feel a need also to demur against several lines of
<BR>inquiry you pursue, especially those which have surfaced recently on the
<BR>list. &nbsp;At the beginning of the "La Figlia" thread, for example, you
<BR>speculate about the (sub)conscious flows operating in Eliot's early poems, 
<BR>&gt; On the five Eliot poems I'm writing about, I'm 
<BR>&gt; fairly sure that just about every image leads back to the Commedia. Or, 
<BR>to 
<BR>&gt; put it the other way, he could have started with some image in Commedia, 
<BR>&gt; free-associated on that image, and come up with a corresponding image in 
<BR>one 
<BR>&gt; of the five poems. &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm not sure if he does that with most or all of his 
<BR>&gt; early poems, although to a lesser extent. 
<BR>yet this description seems to apply more to your own method rather than
<BR>Eliot's, despite the garbled syntax of the last sentence (or what would
<BR>seem garbled to those unfamiliar with an abbreviated American idiom).
<BR>Most of the time I enjoy the aggressive bullishness you exhibit, but far
<BR>too often you seem stuck in a rut with thick blinders on--for example,
<BR>&gt; I'm especially not sure about 
<BR>&gt; La Figlia, though it's having an Italian title &nbsp;does make one wonder if 
<BR>it's 
<BR>&gt; some image or other from Dante.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I may be speaking for other list lurkers when I say sometimes this
<BR>Dantesque obsession distorts your view of TSE's productions in their own
<BR>realm. &nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Could you clarify the following statement, particularly its
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">so-called "apocryphal" or Tennysonian gestures, at least for those of us
<BR>who have not yet had time to consult your book?
<BR>&gt; I said we needed this assumption to understand the Ulysses 
<BR>&gt; episode (which is also supposed to be apocryphal), or what Eliot did with 
<BR>the 
<BR>&gt; Ulysses episode.
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR><B>I meant that Wicksteed, in annotating the Ulysses episode, regards it as 
<BR>apocryphal, probably because of the mismatch with the Odyssey (where Ulysses 
<BR>doesn't drown). Your question sounds as if you thought that by "apocryphal"I 
<BR>mean "Tennysonian," and that wasn't the case. What Eliot did with Dante's 
<BR>Ulysses episode? He said he used it as a foundation for part IV of TWL.
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>
<BR>I will need canto and line numbers too from _Purgatorio_ &nbsp;(whether from
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">TSE's beloved Temple Classics edition or some other) before I can feel
<BR>comfortable absorbing the effect of your contention that
<BR>&gt; Manto is the legendary founder of Mantua, the city where Virgil was born. 
<BR>In 
<BR>&gt; the Commedia, Virgil stays with Dante until they come to Mantua, and then 
<BR>&gt; can't go any further. I took this to be a fancy way of saying that we're 
<BR>all 
<BR>&gt; limited by the conditions of our birth. This in turn leads back to 
<BR>Dante's 
<BR>&gt; compassionate treatment of Virgil. Although Virgil is irredeemable, this 
<BR>&gt; isn't because he's a bad person. It was just his destiny to be born in 
<BR>the 
<BR>&gt; wrong time and place.
<BR>Since when is Mantua on Mount Purgatory? &nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR><B>It isn't, and I didn't say that it was. Virgil's last words to Dante are 
<BR>Purg. 27.126-42, although Dante doesn't seem to realize Virgil is no longer 
<BR>with him until Purg 30.46.51. He's brought Dante as far as the earthly 
<BR>paradise, and Mantua is introduced as Virgil's birthplace in Purg. 6 and 18. 
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>
<BR>We can all appreciate the
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">superficial largesse of your PC conclusions, even in spite of the
<BR>judgmental suppositions they preserve a precarious balance on, but you'll
<BR>have to speak more persuasively to convince us that Dante is _the_ major
<BR>influence on TSE, especially in the early poems. &nbsp;Do you really believe
<BR>that the crysalis of _He Do the Police in Different Voices_ &nbsp;eventually
<BR>metamorphosed into a simple extended dialogue between the Fisher King and 
<BR>his Queen? &nbsp;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>Actually, I've suggested there are four speakers in the poem. 
<BR></B>
<BR>
<BR>I trust you'll take my queries in the proper spirit and reply
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">in due time. &nbsp;Until then, I remain
<BR>Questioningly yours,
<BR>Chris Tidwell
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>Actually, I'm not certain what spirit inspired your post, though &nbsp;if you want 
<BR>to call it &nbsp;a "proper" spirit, that's OK. &nbsp;I remember you from the modernism 
<BR>list, and if you're Marcia's friend from BU, I believe I met you last year at 
<BR>the TSE Society meeting. As our interests seem very dissimilar, I could 
<BR>understand at least in a general way why you'd not be sympathetic to anything 
<BR>I had to say. But this is too mundane to &nbsp;seem worth your getting overwrought 
<BR>about. Why don't you, instead, just clarify your own point of view?
<BR>
<BR>pat </B>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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