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  Please keep going Jon, as I think this is great.=20

  Oh, Pat, if I had the time, I would ramble on (largely incoherently) =
about all this until the list was begging me to stop...I say, get out =
while you still can!!

  Somebody pointed out that Aeneas comes on stage, in the Aeneid, =
wishing that he were dead, and that he's the only epic hero to do so. =
You're giving this a further dimension for me by pointing out that the =
Iliad, too, opens on a tragic note.=20

  It must be said that Aeneas is not exactly Mr Cheery about his destiny =
- rarely has Shakespeare's epithet about, 'Some men are born great, some =
achieve greatness, and *some have greatness thrust upon them*' seemed so =
appropriate. =20

  It's not a motif that's so evident in the Greek literature Virgil drew =
upon; even Aeschylus' Orestes, the most obvious parallel, as an innocent =
victim of the curse of the House of Atreus, only wavers (tellingly) at =
the crucial moment of actually slaughtering his own mother, =
Clytaemnestra.  But Orestes still accepted the *responsibility* for his =
fate, which Aeneas could never accept (remember Aeneas had to be =
*ordered* by the gods to stop sleeping with  Elissa/Dido and *bloody =
well get on with his destiny*). =20

  Sophocles drove the point home; his characters (most famously Oedipus =
and his daughter, Antigone) met their fate not through reluctant =
inevitability, but through stubborn, bloody-minded, wilful, human =
determination to see it through, no matter what the cost.  Aeneas could =
never be accused of such driving ambition.

  Virgil was a great, great poet; but the Latin poets and philosophers =
seemed to miss the real subtlety of the Greeks; they seemed to view =
destiny and inevitability as objective realities; you were a puppet on a =
string, and you just had to deal with it.  Aeneas doesn't like what he's =
doing; but he does what he's told.  He's a puppet. =20

  The Greeks were far more questioning; it's not that easy.  Oedipus was =
the classic (no pun) Greek puppet of the gods; but *not* because he was =
doing what he was told, but almost the reverse; because, by acting as a =
free individual, with his own choices, unbeknownst to himself, he was =
blindly driving to his allotted fate precisely by exercising free will =
in attempting to avoid that fate.  And compare and contrast his daughter =
Antigone, who had every opportunity to avoid her fate, but stubbornly =
refused to do so; she simply *would not do* what she was told.  Whereas =
Aeneas, comparitively spinelessly, simply ultimately did *exactly* what =
he was told, and never mind free will, be it blind, or stubborn.  He had =
orders, and whether he liked them or not, he carried them out.

  I've often stopped to reflect that this philosophical difference =
speaks volumes about why our legal system is so rooted in Latinate =
dictates, and why our arts are still so dominated by 'eleutheria' - the =
Greek notion of personal freedom.  The Romans were great at making rules =
and laws; but the Greeks had the philosophical depth.  In a thousand =
years of the Roman Empire, they didn't throw up a single innovative, =
original philosopher.  But they were great at *telling you what to do*, =
at the pragmatics of life, and our statutes today are testimony to that.

  I'm sorry, to Pat particularly, since she asked for a response, and I =
suspect this is too rushed, and makes little sense to anyone not steeped =
in classics (indeed, it probably makes little sense to anyone that isn't =
me!); I apologise for the incomprehensibility, but I thought Pat's mail =
deserved a response, and I wish I had more time to post a coherent =
reply, rather than this probably rather esoteric mail, which I suspect =
will simply provoke more questions than it answers...

  atropos


  =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
  In a message dated 2/26/01 7:49:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
  [log in to unmask] writes:=20



    Subj:Re: The rewarding classics=20
    Date:2/26/01 7:49:20 PM Eastern Standard Time=20
    From:    [log in to unmask] (Jon Rouse)=20
    Sender:    [log in to unmask]
    Reply-to: [log in to unmask]
    To:    [log in to unmask]




    > "Sing, O goddess, the anger of Achilles, son of Peleus=20
    > That brought countless ills upon the Achaeans."=20
    >=20
    > I don't know the source. Is it a glorification of male rage or a=20
    denunciation=20
    > of male rage?=20
    >=20
    > It's a denunciation, since balance was the ideal of the Greeks.=20

    I'm not sure that I would personally agree with that reading.  =
Achilles was=20
    one of the greatest heroes of all to the Greeks, and indeed is the =
central=20
    figure of the Iliad (and compare Odysseus, who in the later poets, =
such as=20
    Euripides, gets savaged as a personality - Achilles is never treated =
with=20
    the contempt that gets piled on Odysseus in later works).  I =
personally=20
    wouldn't subscribe to a view of Homer denouncing his hero in the =
opening=20
    lines.  Apart from anything else, I think the Greek notion of =
measure and=20
    balance was a far later philosophical development, long after Homer. =
 I=20
    think Homer admires Achilles for standing up to Agamemnon, when the =
Greek=20
    Overlord steals Briseis, Achilles' hard-won prize of battle, away =
from him.=20
    And it's Achilles who turns the tide of the war by entering the fray =
in=20
    complete blood-lust, enraged by Patroclus' death (no obvious notion =
of=20
    balance there); Achilles who kills Hector, and then drags his corpse =
round=20
    and round the city of Troy (again, doesn't strike me as particularly =
the act=20
    of a balanced individual).=20

    If anything, I'd be inclined to suggest that Homer's opening lines =
sow the=20
    seeds of the tragic poets that followed; those that, to quote =
Aeschylus,=20
    took slices from the banquet of Homer.  I don't think Homer intends =
to=20
    criticise Achilles in the opening lines, but he recognises the =
tragic=20
    consequences of Achilles' anger at Agamemnon, and the heavy price it =
cost=20
    the Greeks in the war.  I wouldn't say he *exonerates* him either; =
the cost=20
    is so heavy, and Homer knows that, and states as much right there in =
the=20
    second line of his work.  My reading is he admires Achilles as a =
great hero,=20
    while stating, quite openly, up front, the tragic cost of his =
psychological=20
    make-up.  One could possibly argue that the opening two lines of the =
Iliad=20
    prefigure all the great tragic characters that strode across the =
Greek=20
    stage.=20

    Good heavens, I'm having a head-rush.  I have no idea where I'm =
dragging=20
    this all up from...=20

    atropos=20



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    From: "Jon Rouse" <[log in to unmask]>=20
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    Subject: Re: The rewarding classics=20
    References: <[log in to unmask]>=20
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" =
lang=3D0=20
  size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Please keep going Jon, as I think this =
is great.=20
  <BR></FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Oh, =
Pat,&nbsp;if I had=20
  the time, I would ramble on (largely incoherently) about all this =
until the=20
  list was begging me to stop...I say, get out while you still=20
can!!</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><STRONG>Somebody pointed out that Aeneas =
comes on=20
  stage, in the Aeneid, wishing that he were dead, and that he's the =
only epic=20
  hero to do so. You're giving this a further dimension for me by =
pointing out=20
  that the Iliad, too, opens on a tragic note. =
</STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It must be said that =
Aeneas is not=20
  exactly Mr Cheery about his destiny - rarely has Shakespeare's epithet =
about,=20
  'Some men are born great, some achieve greatness, and *some have =
greatness=20
  thrust upon them*' seemed so appropriate.&nbsp; =
</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's not&nbsp;a motif =
that's so=20
  evident in the Greek literature Virgil drew upon; even Aeschylus' =
Orestes, the=20
  most obvious parallel, as an innocent victim of the curse of the House =
of=20
  Atreus, only wavers (tellingly) at the crucial moment of actually =
slaughtering=20
  his own mother, Clytaemnestra.&nbsp;&nbsp;But&nbsp;Orestes =
still&nbsp;accepted=20
  the *responsibility* for his fate, which Aeneas could never accept=20
  (remember&nbsp;Aeneas had to be *ordered* by&nbsp;the gods =
to&nbsp;stop=20
  sleeping with  Elissa/Dido and *bloody well get on with his =
destiny*).&nbsp;=20
  </FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sophocles drove the =
point home; his=20
  characters (most famously Oedipus and his daughter, Antigone) met =
their fate=20
  not through reluctant inevitability, but through stubborn, =
bloody-minded,=20
  wilful, human determination to see it through, no matter what the =
cost.&nbsp;=20
  Aeneas could never be accused of such driving=20
  ambition.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Virgil was a great, great poet; but =
the Latin=20
  poets and philosophers seemed to miss the real subtlety of the Greeks; =
they=20
  seemed to view destiny and inevitability as objective realities; you =
were a=20
  puppet on a string, and you just had to deal with it.&nbsp; Aeneas =
doesn't=20
  like what he's doing; but he does what he's told.&nbsp; He's&nbsp;a=20
  puppet.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Greeks were far more questioning; =
it's not=20
  that easy.&nbsp; Oedipus was the classic (no pun) Greek puppet of the =
gods;=20
  but *not* because he was doing what he was told, but almost the =
reverse;=20
  because, by&nbsp;acting as a free individual, with his own choices,=20
  unbeknownst to himself, he was blindly driving to his allotted fate =
precisely=20
  by exercising free will in attempting to avoid that fate.&nbsp; And =
compare=20
  and contrast his daughter Antigone, who had every opportunity to avoid =
her=20
  fate, but stubbornly refused to do so; she simply *would not do* what =
she was=20
  told.&nbsp; Whereas Aeneas, comparitively spinelessly, simply =
ultimately did=20
  *exactly* what he was told, and never mind free will, be it blind, or=20
  stubborn.&nbsp; He had orders, and whether he liked them or not, he =
carried=20
  them out.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've often stopped to reflect that =
this=20
  philosophical difference speaks volumes about why our legal system is =
so=20
  rooted in Latinate dictates, and why our arts are still so dominated =
by=20
  'eleutheria' - the Greek notion of personal freedom.&nbsp; The Romans =
were=20
  great at making rules and laws; but the Greeks had the philosophical=20
  depth.&nbsp; In a thousand years of the Roman Empire, they didn't =
throw up a=20
  single innovative, original philosopher.&nbsp; But they were great at =
*telling=20
  you what to do*, at the pragmatics of life, and our statutes today are =

  testimony to that.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm sorry, to Pat particularly, since =
she asked=20
  for a response, and I suspect this is too rushed, and makes little =
sense to=20
  anyone not steeped in classics (indeed, it probably makes little sense =
to=20
  anyone that isn't me!); I apologise for the incomprehensibility, but I =
thought=20
  Pat's mail deserved a response, and I wish I had more time to post a =
coherent=20
  reply, rather than this probably rather esoteric mail, which I suspect =
will=20
  simply provoke more questions than it answers...</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>atropos</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 =
size=3D3=20
  =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><STRONG><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
  <BR>In a message dated 2/26/01 7:49:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
  <BR>[log in to unmask] writes: <BR><BR></STRONG></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE">Subj:<B>Re: The rewarding classics</B> <BR>Date:2/26/01 =
7:49:20=20
    PM Eastern Standard Time <BR>From:=20
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[log in to unmask] (Jon Rouse) <BR>Sender:=20
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[log in to unmask] <BR>Reply-to: <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
<BR>To:=20
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[log in to unmask] <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&gt; =
"Sing, O=20
    goddess, the anger of Achilles, son of Peleus <BR>&gt; That brought=20
    countless ills upon the Achaeans." <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I don't know =
the=20
    source. Is it a glorification of male rage or a <BR>denunciation =
<BR>&gt; of=20
    male rage? <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; It's a denunciation, since balance was =
the=20
    ideal of the Greeks. <BR><BR>I'm not sure that I would personally =
agree with=20
    that reading. &nbsp;Achilles was <BR>one of the greatest heroes of =
all to=20
    the Greeks, and indeed is the central <BR>figure of the Iliad (and =
compare=20
    Odysseus, who in the later poets, such as <BR>Euripides, gets =
savaged as a=20
    personality - Achilles is never treated with <BR>the contempt that =
gets=20
    piled on Odysseus in later works). &nbsp;I personally <BR>wouldn't =
subscribe=20
    to a view of Homer denouncing his hero in the opening <BR>lines. =
&nbsp;Apart=20
    from anything else, I think the Greek notion of measure and =
<BR>balance was=20
    a far later philosophical development, long after Homer. &nbsp;I =
<BR>think=20
    Homer admires Achilles for standing up to Agamemnon, when the Greek=20
    <BR>Overlord steals Briseis, Achilles' hard-won prize of battle, =
away from=20
    him. <BR>And it's Achilles who turns the tide of the war by entering =
the=20
    fray in <BR>complete blood-lust, enraged by Patroclus' death (no =
obvious=20
    notion of <BR>balance there); Achilles who kills Hector, and then =
drags his=20
    corpse round <BR>and round the city of Troy (again, doesn't strike =
me as=20
    particularly the act <BR>of a balanced individual). <BR><BR>If =
anything, I'd=20
    be inclined to suggest that Homer's opening lines sow the <BR>seeds =
of the=20
    tragic poets that followed; those that, to quote Aeschylus, <BR>took =
slices=20
    from the banquet of Homer. &nbsp;I don't think Homer intends to=20
    <BR>criticise Achilles in the opening lines, but he recognises the =
tragic=20
    <BR>consequences of Achilles' anger at Agamemnon, and the heavy =
price it=20
    cost <BR>the Greeks in the war. &nbsp;I wouldn't say he *exonerates* =
him=20
    either; the cost <BR>is so heavy, and Homer knows that, and states =
as much=20
    right there in the <BR>second line of his work. &nbsp;My reading is =
he=20
    admires Achilles as a great hero, <BR>while stating, quite openly, =
up front,=20
    the tragic cost of his psychological <BR>make-up. &nbsp;One could =
possibly=20
    argue that the opening two lines of the Iliad <BR>prefigure all the =
great=20
    tragic characters that strode across the Greek <BR>stage. =
<BR><BR>Good=20
    heavens, I'm having a head-rush. &nbsp;I have no idea where I'm =
dragging=20
    <BR>this all up from... <BR><BR>atropos <BR><BR></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0f0f0f=20
    face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
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