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Pat:

First off,  I think that TWL has form and always have thought so   What =
form is precisely I have never defined to myself.  I just use the word =
to indicate that a poem has a distinctive physical shape on paper and in =
the mind.  And to think that I just got characterized by my guru as a =
deductive thinker as opposed to Pound's inductive thinking.  Deductive =
thinking being not the form that had been expected or wanted in my last =
offering at his alter.  =20

Pound in "A Retrospect" says:  "Form----I think there is a 'fluid' as =
well as a 'solid' content, that some poems have form as a tree has form, =
some as water poured into a vase.  That most symmetrical forms have =
certain uses.  That  a vast number of subjects cannot be precisely, and =
therefore not propery rendered in symmetrical forms."

I think he would call Swinburne's double sestina "The Complaint of Lisa" =
a solid and symmetrical form.  I think TWL would be a fluid =
non-symmetrical form.  Dante's "Divine Comedy"  would be a solid =
symmetrical form.  There are 3 canticles of 33 cantos each with one =
introductory canto.  The cantos consist of strophes of three lines.  =
Now, however, we get a little fluid.  The canto can be of varying length =
but again toward solid is approximately 130 lines long.  The rhyme =
scheme is exacting and is never diviated from, even when Arnault Daniel =
speaks in Provencal in "Purgatorio 26.  The only non-Italian words in =
the poem.  A poem written in Spenser's stanza could be a fluid  =
symmetrical form.  The troubadours were much obsessed with creating =
complex form for their love poetry.  The sestina is one of these complex =
forms where the poet is almost more obsessed with the form than with =
what the muse has directed that he say. =20

The above addresses physical form;  a poem also has form as to the =
manner that the poem is presented.  TSE identified in  "The Three Voices =
of Poetry" 3 voices that he could identify in a poem.  I think that the =
manner in which the poet uses these 3 voices constitutes a form.  Is the =
manner a dramatic monologue?  Are there more than one dramatic =
characters?  Is the dramatic character positively identified? etc.

Earlier this year in a study of Pound's metric experiments I found =
Stephen Adams book "Poetic Designs: An Introduction to Meters, Verse =
Forms and Figures of Speech" very useful.=20

The ideogrammic method's lack of syntax and its use of free verse would =
seem to ternd it towards being formless.  Such is not true.  The =
elimination of syntax allows the presentation of ideas in a timeless =
format.  Syntactical language is temporal which gives it a slippery, =
fluid nature.  Lack of Syntax allows the poet to present a scene almost =
like a painter does.  As spatial art has form so would a poem in the =
ideogrammic method.

BTW I think it was a practioner of the ideogrammic method, William =
Carlos Williams, who said that his own poetry was formless.  If so,  I =
wouldn't want to countradict the good Doctor.

>From the shadow expecting correction
Rick Seddon
McIntosh, NM, USA =20


    -----Original Message-----
    From: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
    To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
    Date: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 4:34 PM
    Subject: Re: Form in TWL (was Re: Stetson in The Waste Land)
   =20
   =20
    In a message dated 3/28/01 3:27:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, =
[log in to unmask]
    writes:=20
   =20
   =20
   =20
        Retreating into the shadow=20
        Rick Seddon=20
        McIntosh, NM, USA=20
       =20
   =20
   =20
    No, please don't. Just give me a simple answer to what you think =
form is. I=20
    can see it's important to you in such issues as whether a Stetson is =
similar=20
    to, or different from, the hats worn by the Anzacs. And I'm sure you =
could=20
    give a clear explanation of how sheep differ from goats, or a barge =
from a=20
    battleship...all of which are questions about form.  But what do you =

    understand form to be in poetry, as in your reference to  the =
question of=20
    whether or not TWL is formless? Or if it was discussed in any of the =
lit=20
    classes you've taken (it might not have been), how was it explained =
there?=20
   =20
    pat=20

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Pat:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>First off,&nbsp; I think that TWL has form and =
always have=20
thought so&nbsp;&nbsp; What form is precisely I have never defined to=20
myself.&nbsp; I just use the word to indicate that a poem has a =
distinctive=20
physical shape on paper and in the mind.&nbsp; And to think that I just =
got=20
characterized by my guru as a deductive thinker as opposed to Pound's =
inductive=20
thinking.&nbsp; Deductive thinking being not the form that had been =
expected or=20
wanted in my last offering at his alter.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pound in &quot;A Retrospect&quot; says:&nbsp; =
&quot;Form----I=20
think there is a 'fluid' as well as a 'solid' content, that some poems =
have form=20
as a tree has form, some as water poured into a vase.&nbsp; That most=20
symmetrical forms have certain uses.&nbsp; That&nbsp; a vast number of =
subjects=20
cannot be precisely, and therefore not propery rendered in symmetrical=20
forms.&quot;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think he would call Swinburne's double sestina =
&quot;The=20
Complaint of Lisa&quot; a solid and symmetrical form.&nbsp; I think TWL =
would be=20
a fluid non-symmetrical form.&nbsp; Dante's &quot;Divine =
Comedy&quot;&nbsp;=20
would be a solid symmetrical form.&nbsp; There are 3 canticles of 33 =
cantos each=20
with one introductory canto.&nbsp; The cantos consist of strophes of =
three=20
lines.&nbsp; Now, however, we get a little fluid.&nbsp; The canto can be =
of=20
varying length but again toward solid is approximately 130 lines =
long.&nbsp; The=20
rhyme scheme is exacting and is never diviated from, even when Arnault =
Daniel=20
speaks in Provencal in &quot;Purgatorio 26.&nbsp; The only non-Italian =
words in=20
the poem.&nbsp; A poem written in Spenser's stanza could be a =
fluid&nbsp;=20
symmetrical form.&nbsp; The troubadours were much obsessed with creating =
complex=20
form for their love poetry.&nbsp; The sestina is one of these complex =
forms=20
where the poet is almost more obsessed with the form than with what the =
muse has=20
directed that he say.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The above addresses physical form;&nbsp; a poem also =
has form=20
as to the manner that the poem is presented.&nbsp; TSE identified =
in&nbsp;=20
&quot;The Three Voices of Poetry&quot; 3 voices that he could identify =
in a=20
poem.&nbsp; I think that the manner in which the poet uses these 3 =
voices=20
constitutes a form.&nbsp; Is the manner a dramatic monologue?&nbsp; Are =
there=20
more than one dramatic characters?&nbsp; Is the dramatic character =
positively=20
identified? etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Earlier this year in a study of Pound's metric =
experiments I=20
found Stephen Adams book &quot;Poetic Designs: An Introduction to =
Meters, Verse=20
Forms and Figures of Speech&quot; very useful. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The ideogrammic method's lack of syntax and its use =
of free=20
verse would seem to ternd it towards being formless.&nbsp; Such is not=20
true.&nbsp; The elimination of syntax allows the presentation of ideas =
in a=20
timeless format.&nbsp; Syntactical language is temporal which gives it a =

slippery, fluid nature.&nbsp; Lack of Syntax allows the poet to present =
a scene=20
almost like a painter does.&nbsp; As spatial art has form so would a =
poem in the=20
ideogrammic method.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>BTW I think it was a practioner of the ideogrammic =
method,=20
William Carlos Williams, who said that his own poetry was =
formless.&nbsp; If=20
so,&nbsp; I wouldn't want to countradict the good Doctor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>From the shadow expecting=20
correction</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Rick Seddon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>McIntosh, NM, USA&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B><A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;<BR><B>To: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;<BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, March 28, 2001 4:34 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Form in =
TWL=20
    (was Re: Stetson in The Waste Land)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" lang=3D0 size=3D3 =
FAMILY =3D=20
    SANSSERIF><B>In a message dated 3/28/01 3:27:59 PM Eastern Standard =
Time, <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> <BR>writes:=20
    <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 =
FAMILY =3D=20
    SANSSERIF></B><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
    TYPE =3D CITE>Retreating into the shadow <BR>Rick Seddon =
<BR>McIntosh, NM,=20
        USA <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Arial Narrow"=20
    lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY =3D SANSSERIF><B><BR>No, please don't. Just =
give me a=20
    simple answer to what you think form is. I <BR>can see it's =
important to you=20
    in such issues as whether a Stetson is similar <BR>to, or different =
from,=20
    the hats worn by the Anzacs. And I'm sure you could <BR>give a clear =

    explanation of how sheep differ from goats, or a barge from a=20
    <BR>battleship...all of which are questions about form. &nbsp;But =
what do=20
    you <BR>understand form to be in poetry, as in your reference to =
&nbsp;the=20
    question of <BR>whether or not TWL is formless? Or if it was =
discussed in=20
    any of the lit <BR>classes you've taken (it might not have been), =
how was it=20
    explained there? <BR><BR>pat</B></FONT> =
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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