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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]

  >From at least the late Victorian period onward, Uranian meant gay.=20





    To whom? To gay men? To everyone? I think we should talk about =
in-group=20
      argots, because it's always tricky to decide, for a given period, =
how=20
     generally known or generally accepted they really were.=20

A safe bet is that the meaning would have been known to the small =
ingrown coterie of poetry afficionadoes whom Eliot said he was writing =
for at the time.=20

Yours,=20

Rapha=EBl Ingelbien
[log in to unmask]
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 4:23 PM
  Subject: Re: the Uranian muse again


  In a message dated 3/1/01 8:07:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, =
[log in to unmask]
  writes:=20


  It might be that=20
  "everyone" who's Czechoslovakian knows certain Czech curse words. =
That's=20
  insufficient as evidence that these words are known or used outside =
the=20
  group, or that there's even any particular interest in them outside =
the=20
  group.=20

  It's true that at the moment the Internet is flooded with sites on =
which gay=20
  men seem to be assuming or preaching that Urania "belongs" to male=20
  homosexuals (and presumably isn't "really" the traditional patron of=20
  astronomy/astrology). But why would the sales pitch be necessary if=20
  "everyone" already saw it this way? And isn't this a classic co-opting =

  situation?  I also see Urania mentioned on astronomical and =
astrological=20
  sites. So the astronomers and astrologers either don't know or don't =
care=20
  about  "the homosexual perspective on Urania."=20

  I think we have to start evaluating what the actual situation might =
have been=20
  at the time Pound wrote the ditty, and we have to quit assuming that =
the=20
  social situation at that time was "just like" the social situation =
today as=20
  we see it reflected on the Internet.=20

  pat=20

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; FONT: 10pt arial; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE">&gt;From at least the late Victorian period onward, =
Uranian meant=20
  gay. <BR><BR><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D3=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Arial Narrow"=20
lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To =
whom? To gay men?=20
To everyone? I think we should talk about in-group =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
argots, because it's always tricky to decide, for a given period, how=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  generally known or generally accepted they =
really were.=20
</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">A safe bet is that the meaning would =
have been=20
known to the small ingrown coterie of&nbsp;poetry afficionadoes whom=20
Eliot&nbsp;said he&nbsp;was writing for at the time. </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Yours,&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Rapha=EBl Ingelbien</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 01, 2001 =
4:23=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: the Uranian muse =
again</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3D"Arial =
Narrow" lang=3D0=20
  size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>In a message dated 3/1/01 8:07:45 AM =
Eastern=20
  Standard Time, <A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>=20
  <BR>writes: <BR><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial lang=3D0 =
size=3D2=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></B><BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
face=3D"Arial Narrow"=20
  lang=3D0 size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><B>It might be that =
<BR>"everyone" who's=20
  Czechoslovakian knows certain Czech curse words. That's =
<BR>insufficient as=20
  evidence that these words are known or used outside the <BR>group, or =
that=20
  there's even any particular interest in them outside the <BR>group.=20
  <BR><BR>It's true that at the moment the Internet is flooded with =
sites on=20
  which gay <BR>men seem to be assuming or preaching that Urania =
"belongs" to=20
  male <BR>homosexuals (and presumably isn't "really" the traditional =
patron of=20
  <BR>astronomy/astrology). But why would the sales pitch be necessary =
if=20
  <BR>"everyone" already saw it this way? And isn't this a classic =
co-opting=20
  <BR>situation? &nbsp;I also see Urania mentioned on astronomical and=20
  astrological <BR>sites. So the astronomers and astrologers either =
don't know=20
  or don't care <BR>about &nbsp;"the homosexual perspective on Urania."=20
  <BR><BR>I think we have to start evaluating what the actual situation =
might=20
  have been <BR>at the time Pound wrote the ditty, and we have to quit =
assuming=20
  that the <BR>social situation at that time was "just like" the social=20
  situation today as <BR>we see it reflected on the Internet.=20
  <BR><BR>pat</B></FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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