This Zen posting struck a cord.  or is it chord.  (Oh well the list is use
to my speling :>) by now).  TSE's friend, cheerleader and editor, Ezra
Pound,  was much into Chinese poetry.  His "Cathay", published in 1915, is a
free translation of  poems mostly by the ancient Chinese poet Li Po.
Pound's study of the Fenollosa notebooks which led to "Cathay" supplied
Pound with the summary thinking that he needed for the "ideogrammic method"
which ties a neat knot around his ideas of Imagism and Vorticism.  Pound had
a technical word for what the answer on the Zen list is trying to say.  He
called this relationship of words, logopoeia.  He felt that logopoeia, "the
dance of intellect among words", is  impossible to translate into another
language.  Fenollosa believed that Chinese was a language properly without
syntax.  That the ideograms supplied the syntax.

My point with this longwinded exercise is that you may be closer to the
truth than you realize.  In the ideogrammic method Images are set side by
side without syntax to create meaning in (not at)  the boundary.  That
meaning is totally unstated and might be incorrectly thought of as "reading
between the lines".  One is actually reading between the Images.  TWL may be
TSE's only Imagist poem and it for sure had a Vorticist as an editor.  Many
people reject the meaning they receive from the boundry and continue to
attempt to extract meaning directly from the Images.  The isolated Image may
very easily seem nonsence since the intended meaning lies not in the Image
but in the boundry.

Rick Seddon
McIntosh, NM, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Rickard A Parker <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, March 26, 2001 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Stetson in The Waste Land

>Steve and group,
>I'll resubmit my post from this morning when I get home (I still
>haven't seen it.)  In the meantime I'll like to say that Steve has
>found yet another scholar who believes that there is something
>personal behind TWL.
>Anyway, that post and the following little finds of mine today tie
>together in my mind.
>>>From the Unix fortune command displaying a random "Calvin and Hobbes"
>    I'm crying because out there he's gone, but he's not gone inside me.
>        -- Calvin
>    Frequently Asked Questions from alt.zen:
>        "Why do people post such nonsense to this group?"
>        One of the central points of Zen is intuitive understanding. As
>        a result, words and sentences have no fixed meaning, and logic is
>        often irrelevant. Words have meaning only in relation to who is
>        using them, who they are talking to, and what situation they are
>        used in. Some postings are indeed nonsense; other postings appear
>        to be nonsense at first but this is because the meaning is all
>        between the lines. Zen and poetry have gone hand in hand for
>        centuries.
>To me a lot of Eliot's work appears to be nonsense but then "Words
>have meaning only in relation to who is using them, who they are
>talking to, and what situation they are used in."
>   Rick Parker