Dear Raphael,

You are absolutely right about the collusion of many Scottish aristocrats in 
both English language imposition and the Clearances. If you will remember, 
I described the booing of the Duke and Duchess of Sutherland.  They were 
Scots.  It's a long story and a complicated one, and I think my point 
included--perhaps not clearly--what you point out.  But on the TSE issue, 
see my previous message.  I would very much like to discuss it, and I have 
written on it.

Date sent:      	Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:07:35 +0100
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From:           	"INGELBIEN RAPHAEL" <[log in to unmask]>
To:             	<[log in to unmask]>
Subject:        	Re: Not so OT?

> Now, what is wrong with reciting historical facts, and contending that
they should be known?  There can > be no serious question that the
expansionist and imperial tendencies of the English nation, as it grew to
> Great Britain, had terrible consequences for many people, and that this
has been an important part of > world history over the past 500 years (and
regional history far longer.)

If you go through Nancy's posts again, you will note that she blamed the
horrors of clearances on 'the English speaking', which is not always the
same thing as the English. The English language wasn't simply imposed on
Scotland by its nasty Southern neighbour, it was often quite deliberatley
adopted by the Scottish aristocratic classes and used by them as a means
of oppressing their inferiors. Much has been made of the suppression of
Celtic languages by barbaric practices like the use of the infamous Welsh
knot in schools. What is less often noted is that Welsh parents often
encouraged their kids to speak English rather than Welsh: this would raise
their social and economic prospects. Ironically, the most outspoken
defenders of Welsh have included some English Tories who obviously
regarded Wales as a cultural theme park where creatures spoke a strange
tongue. Similarly, Matthew Arnold's advocacy of the Celtic languages
doesn't mean that he was sympathetic to the political demands of Irish
nationalists - not by a long chalk.

> One could certainly complain that this sort of discussion of historical
grievences is inappropriate on the
> TSE list, or should be marked "OT

In this case, we may actually discuss Eliot's opinions on '''regional'''
cultures in Britain. They're to be found in Notes towards the Definition
of Culture. Eliot was actually another example of how cultural
conservatives can defend regional differences while stopping short of
supporting nationalism. Perhaps Nancy can tell us what she makes of his
none too high opinion of Scottish nationalism. The thread can then be
called 'Eliot v. MacDiarmid'.

Looking forward to it,

Raphael Ingelbien
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