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Nancy,

I've met angry individuals from many groups who feel, as you do, that 
injustices done to one's own in the past should never be forgiven under any 
circumstances, even if the net result of dwelling on them in anger is to 
embitter the present for the complainer and those around the complainer. It's 
a matter of personal style. I don't fault you for your choices, although I 
don't understand them. But neither do I fault those who want closure, or who 
feel a moral imperative to forgive, or who simply prefer to leave judgment to 
God.

But these things aren't actually isn't what I meant in mentioning individual 
choice. For an example, nothing is preventing you from speaking only the 
Scottish languager, moving to Scotland, and immersing yourself in the study 
of Scottish culture. The Duke and Duchess of Sutherland aren't going to stop 
you, nor is anybody else. So I'm guessing it might have been your own choice 
to live in the US, and it's the kind of choice I'd want anyone to have.

pat
-------------------------------------------



In a message dated 3/21/01 6:51:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[log in to unmask] writes:


> This is to Rick (who I keep hoping is being sardonic)--in case he is 
> not--and 
> to Pat:
> 
> First of all, I was only talking about language intially.  But Gaelic and 
> Scots 
> were systematically and brutally suppressed.  I myself sat in the pub of 
> the 
> Traverse theater in 1980 talking with a young woman from the Gaeltach 
> who, when she had said a Gaelic word in school had been made to wear a 
> letter around her neck on a cord to shame her.  Note: 1980.  I was told 
> personally by Hugh MacDiarmid about children being punished in school for 
> speaking Scots.  I am not just theorizing.
> 
> But if we are talking "culture," do you know how the "Highland Clearances" 
> were implemented?  For much of the late 18th and early 19th century, 
> people were simply kicked off the land and put in boats not much (if any) 
> better than the slave ships and sent to Nova Scotia.  That is why its name 
> is "New Scotland."  The way they did it was this:  a sheriff or other 
> official 
> who spoke only English went into Gaelic villages where no one spoke 
> English and announced (in English) that they had until, say, next Tuesday, 
> to leave.  No one had a clue what had been said.  "Next Tuesday" the 
> English speaking officials returned and set fire to all the houses, some 
> with 
> old people in them, and sent the population keening and weeping to the 
> ocean's edge.  I have read accounts by those who were there.  They were 
> told they would be given new land:  it was pebble beach  (Not much for 
> farming).  The ships were waiting.  Many died.  The reason they did it was 
> that sheep would make a profit but people could not wrest wealth from a 
> rocky soil.  All they had was poverty and a great culture, and that did not 
> make a profit. I remember a Scottish play in St. Andrews in which a 
> character represented the Duchess of Sutherland.  The Duke and Duchess 
> of Sutherland were especially sweeping and brutal in their methods.  The 
> audience was a sophisticated late 20th century academic group; they 
> booed the character in an anguished sound.  I cannot forget these things, 
> and I know they are not isolated or just Scottish:  I have read the history.
> In the Highlands, in the post-Culloden period it was a CAPITAL CRIME to 
> wear the kilt or play the pipes or have a picture of Prince Charlie.
> 
> So this has ABSOLUTLELY nothing to do with individual choice or 
> improving the lot of the native population.  So if you  don't know any of 
> the 
> history,  maybe you should read some before trivializing genocide (the 
> Clearances were) and cultural destruction (punishing people for their own 
> speech is). I think this astonishing comfort in the face of other people's 
> pain 
> and sorrow unbelievable. And I will not be drawn into any discussion of 
> whether this is accurate.  Read the history--and read the contemporary 
> accounts--and see if these attitudes about how fine it was for everyone in 
> the long run that people were driven wailing from their homes forever and 
> that even today children are taught that a speech descended from 
> Northumbrian (the language of "Caedmon's Hymn"--the first known text in 
> Anglo-Saxon and a magnificent poem) is just ignorant, incorrect English 
> and all will be well and all manner of thing will be well when we just 
> stamp 
> out everything different from ourselves, whoever "we" are.  
> 
> Nancy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial Narrow" LANG="0"><B>Nancy,
<BR>
<BR>I've met angry individuals from many groups who feel, as you do, that 
<BR>injustices done to one's own in the past should never be forgiven under any 
<BR>circumstances, even if the net result of dwelling on them in anger is to 
<BR>embitter the present for the complainer and those around the complainer. It's 
<BR>a matter of personal style. I don't fault you for your choices, although I 
<BR>don't understand them. But neither do I fault those who want closure, or who 
<BR>feel a moral imperative to forgive, or who simply prefer to leave judgment to 
<BR>God.
<BR>
<BR>But these things aren't actually isn't what I meant in mentioning individual 
<BR>choice. For an example, nothing is preventing you from speaking only the 
<BR>Scottish languager, moving to Scotland, and immersing yourself in the study 
<BR>of Scottish culture. The Duke and Duchess of Sutherland aren't going to stop 
<BR>you, nor is anybody else. So I'm guessing it might have been your own choice 
<BR>to live in the US, and it's the kind of choice I'd want anyone to have.
<BR>
<BR>pat
<BR>-------------------------------------------
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>In a message dated 3/21/01 6:51:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
<BR>[log in to unmask] writes:
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">This is to Rick (who I keep hoping is being sardonic)--in case he is 
<BR>not--and 
<BR>to Pat:
<BR>
<BR>First of all, I was only talking about language intially. &nbsp;But Gaelic and 
<BR>Scots 
<BR>were systematically and brutally suppressed. &nbsp;I myself sat in the pub of 
<BR>the 
<BR>Traverse theater in 1980 talking with a young woman from the Gaeltach 
<BR>who, when she had said a Gaelic word in school had been made to wear a 
<BR>letter around her neck on a cord to shame her. &nbsp;Note: 1980. &nbsp;I was told 
<BR>personally by Hugh MacDiarmid about children being punished in school for 
<BR>speaking Scots. &nbsp;I am not just theorizing.
<BR>
<BR>But if we are talking "culture," do you know how the "Highland Clearances" 
<BR>were implemented? &nbsp;For much of the late 18th and early 19th century, 
<BR>people were simply kicked off the land and put in boats not much (if any) 
<BR>better than the slave ships and sent to Nova Scotia. &nbsp;That is why its name 
<BR>is "New Scotland." &nbsp;The way they did it was this: &nbsp;a sheriff or other 
<BR>official 
<BR>who spoke only English went into Gaelic villages where no one spoke 
<BR>English and announced (in English) that they had until, say, next Tuesday, 
<BR>to leave. &nbsp;No one had a clue what had been said. &nbsp;"Next Tuesday" the 
<BR>English speaking officials returned and set fire to all the houses, some 
<BR>with 
<BR>old people in them, and sent the population keening and weeping to the 
<BR>ocean's edge. &nbsp;I have read accounts by those who were there. &nbsp;They were 
<BR>told they would be given new land: &nbsp;it was pebble beach &nbsp;(Not much for 
<BR>farming). &nbsp;The ships were waiting. &nbsp;Many died. &nbsp;The reason they did it was 
<BR>that sheep would make a profit but people could not wrest wealth from a 
<BR>rocky soil. &nbsp;All they had was poverty and a great culture, and that did not 
<BR>make a profit. I remember a Scottish play in St. Andrews in which a 
<BR>character represented the Duchess of Sutherland. &nbsp;The Duke and Duchess 
<BR>of Sutherland were especially sweeping and brutal in their methods. &nbsp;The 
<BR>audience was a sophisticated late 20th century academic group; they 
<BR>booed the character in an anguished sound. &nbsp;I cannot forget these things, 
<BR>and I know they are not isolated or just Scottish: &nbsp;I have read the history.
<BR>In the Highlands, in the post-Culloden period it was a CAPITAL CRIME to 
<BR>wear the kilt or play the pipes or have a picture of Prince Charlie.
<BR>
<BR>So this has ABSOLUTLELY nothing to do with individual choice or 
<BR>improving the lot of the native population. &nbsp;So if you &nbsp;don't know any of 
<BR>the 
<BR>history, &nbsp;maybe you should read some before trivializing genocide (the 
<BR>Clearances were) and cultural destruction (punishing people for their own 
<BR>speech is). I think this astonishing comfort in the face of other people's 
<BR>pain 
<BR>and sorrow unbelievable. And I will not be drawn into any discussion of 
<BR>whether this is accurate. &nbsp;Read the history--and read the contemporary 
<BR>accounts--and see if these attitudes about how fine it was for everyone in 
<BR>the long run that people were driven wailing from their homes forever and 
<BR>that even today children are taught that a speech descended from 
<BR>Northumbrian (the language of "Caedmon's Hymn"--the first known text in 
<BR>Anglo-Saxon and a magnificent poem) is just ignorant, incorrect English 
<BR>and all will be well and all manner of thing will be well when we just 
<BR>stamp 
<BR>out everything different from ourselves, whoever "we" are. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>Nancy
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<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
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