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TSE  February 1996

TSE February 1996

Subject:

DS and The Faeri Queen

From:

Jonathan Crowther <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

02 Feb 96 14:31:46 EST

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (20701 lines)

I was very interested in Jason Tarricone's post on 26/01/96.  It has raised the
following questions for me:

1.  The critic of Tradition and the Individual Talent could be expected to put
his critical theory into poetic practice.  But which tradition is the poetic
practice of FQ addressing:  the Anglican tradition?; the American tradition; the
European tradition?

2.  We are well versed in his antecedents in the Anglican tradition, of which
JT's posting is a further example.  But what of the American tradition  ?  What
of Poe and Whitman, the former, in Mallarme's words at his tomb achieving: "un
sens plus pur aux mots de la tribu"?

3. Spenser of course was a poet in exile, writing in Ireland for the Faerie
Queen.  Who was Eliot writing for?

4.  The WL begins with Chaucer, LG with Langland.  Is there a sequence backwards
in Eliot's poems forwards: WL = C20th, Gerontion = C19th, BN = C18th, EC =
C17th, DS = (as we now know) C16th and LG arrives back at where the Anglican
tradition started with the DreamVision of Piers Ploughman: in a somer season
when soft was the sun?

5.  Can Eliot's work be seen as attempt to escape from the American tradition
with the coming home in LG being nevretheless the tacit admittance via Mallarme
/ Laforgue French tradition that he is in fact part of the American tradition ?

6.   Did Eliot ever say anything nice about Poe or Whitman?

7. Is midwinter spring the acceptance of Langland's poetic thesis that the
bottom of sleep / dream is awakening and terefore at the bottom of the past is
in the present the discovery of the future?


From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  2 17:31:56 1996
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 18:39:32 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Booberry)
Subject: response to Jonathan Crowther

I have been thinking briefly about the questions you pose concerning the
tradition out of which Eliot writes.  It is important to remember that "Dry
Salvages" refers to Gloucester, Massachusetts, where Eliot spent many of
his summers.  That alone means that he has been somewhat influenced by his
American childhood.  In the poem, Eliot seems to refer to the Mississippi
as well.  But this does not mean he is writing out of an American context.


It is also necessary to examine what literature was considered important
during the early part of this century.  I cannot say for sure, because I
have not researched it, but it is possible that literature from 19th
century America was not very much loved by the reading public.  I say this
because the focus of American literature at the time was moving to Europe
and Britain.  The greatest American writers were moving across the
Atlantic, bringing with them the idea of exactly what was good literature;
moving the focus from Whitman and Poe and Dickinson to "British
Literature."  The writers responsible for this are Pound, Eliot, Hemingway,
Fitzgerald, Stein, and others.  So Eliot could have been less inclined to
read Whitman very closely if there was so much else that was popular.  One
must understand that I am only putting forth a very rough possibility.
Others, I am sure, have more knowledge on the subject.


From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb  3 02:15:27 1996
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From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 02:15:32 -0600
Subject: TSE FAQ (monthly informational posting)
Reply-to: Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>
Priority: normal
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==========================================================================
TSE FAQ: The T. S. Eliot Discussion Forum Frequently Asked Questions File
==========================================================================
Created: 26 Dec 95
Last modified: 2 Feb 96
Version: 0.2

This is the latest draft of a monthly informational posting for TSE, the
T. S. Eliot Discussion Forum. At present, it is an FAQ for the TSE list
only, not for Eliot's life and works (see, however, section 4., below).
Questions and suggestions are welcome, and may be sent to either Greg
Foster <[log in to unmask]> or Timothy Materer
<[log in to unmask]>.

The most important addition to this draft is that the TSE list archives
are now accessible by gopher (see new section 7, below).


CONTENTS

1. What is TSE?  Why?
2. Who else is on the list?  Should I introduce myself?
3. How Do I Subscribe/Unsubscribe/Post to the List?
4. Are There Any Guidelines for Posting?
5. What Collaborative Projects Is the TSE List Membership Working On?
6. How Do I Make the Listproc Do My Bidding?
7. How Do I Access the TSE List Archives?
8. Where Can I Find More Information?


1. WHAT IS TSE? WHY?

TSE is an electronic discussion list devoted to the works and life of
the Anglo-American poet, playwright, and critic T. S. Eliot (1888-1965).
It was created in November 1995 by two Eliot enthusiasts at the
University of Missouri-Columbia, Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>
and Timothy Materer <[log in to unmask]>. The list is
unmoderated, and is open to all readers of Eliot--poets, scholars,
students, fans, and the merely curious. In addition to providing an open
forum for conversation about any aspect of Eliot's poems and other
writings, the list will be a resource for working scholars, who are
encouraged to post queries and confer about work in progress.


2. WHO ELSE IS ON THE LIST?  SHOULD I INTRODUCE MYSELF?

As of 1 February 1996, we have 160 subscribers with e-mail addresses
all across the globe, and our numbers continue to grow. Only a few,
commendable persons have introduced themselves, however, so it is
somewhat difficult to be more precise than that about who we are. I
suspect that many others have refrained from posting out of a
reluctance to introduce themselves without having something profoundly
interesting to add to the discussion at the same time.

Accordingly, I am now inviting everyone on the list to e-mail a brief
self-introductory message to me (Greg Foster
<[log in to unmask]>) instead. I will then make this information
available to all of us on the World Wide Web (URL to be announced Real
Soon Now) and also post a text version to our list at regular
intervals.

Those who, for any reason, do not want to introduce themselves should
not feel obligated to do so, of course; anonymous lurking is a long and
honorable Internet tradition. For the rest, we look forward to finding
out who you are, what you do and are interested in, and what (if any)
particular interests you have in regard to T. S. Eliot.


3. HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE/POST TO THE LIST?

  A. To SUBSCRIBE to TSE, send a message to [log in to unmask], 
     leaving the Subject line blank. In the body of the message, type 
     the single line: 

     SUBSCRIBE TSE Yourfirstname Yourlastname 

     where "Yourfirstname Yourlastname" is your real name.

  B. To UNSUBSCRIBE, send the following message to 
     [log in to unmask], again leaving the Subject line blank:

     UNSUBSCRIBE TSE

     (SIGNOFF TSE also works.)  You do not have to add your name when
     unsubscribing.

  C. To POST messages to the list, use the address:
     [log in to unmask] 

N.B. Everything posted by list members to [log in to unmask] will
     be automatically distributed to everyone on the list.  For
     obvious reasons, then, DO NOT SEND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS OR OTHER
     LIST COMMANDS TO THIS ADDRESS!  (For more information about list
     commands, see section 5., "How Do I Make the Listproc Do My
     Bidding?")


4. ARE THERE ANY GUIDELINES FOR POSTING?

TSE is an unmoderated list, which means that we don't screen your
posts before they are distributed to the list of subscribers. We would
like to keep it that way. It is in the interests of all us on the list,
therefore, to adhere to a few basic guidelines based largely on
netiquette:

  1. We encourage wide-ranging discussions about any aspect of T. S.
     Eliot's works or life, in addition to works (including our own)
     about Eliot and related topics (Modernism, etc).  Queries are
     always welcome.  The best informal criterion is simply that a
     post's subject matter should be likely to be of interest to people
     interested in Eliot.

  2. Readers of all levels are welcome, from novices to established
     authorities.  Accordingly, a spirit of mutual respect and
     tolerance must prevail in our responses to one another.  This does
     not mean that we are not free to disagree and even to express our
     disagreements vehemently; but such expressions must stop short of
     personal attacks. 

  3. All posts should carry a descriptive Subject line, and responses
     to others' posts should retain the previous Subject line unless
     the topic under discussion has shifted.  (Most mailers
     automatically retain Subject lines if you respond by means of the
     Reply function.)  The primary reason for using descriptive
     Subject lines is consideration: not everyone will be interested in
     every discussion we have (strange but true!), and those especially
     who have to pay for their e-mail will appreciate the option of
     choosing which posts they want to read. Retaining established
     Subject lines also enables list members to read threads of
     particular interest to them in sequence. 

  4. Replies to others' posts should only quote as much of the
     original message as is necessary to establish context.  To quote
     the entire text automatically is often not only to waste bandwidth
     but also to impose unnecessary expense on list members who do not
     have free Internet access.

Those things said, I should also say that discussions on the list so
far in its short life have been uniformly considerate, observing all of
these guidelines without their having had to be enforced.


5. WHAT COLLABORATIVE PROJECTS IS THE TSE LIST MEMBERSHIP WORKING ON?

We're glad you asked this! As an international community of Eliot
enthusiasts with widely varying backgrounds, interests, and expertise,
we ourselves constitute one of our most impressive resources. We have
several schemes in motion to take advantage of this to our collective
benefit. Some of them--maybe most, at present--will appeal only to
academics or hard-core Eliot aficionados, but we welcome the input of
any and all listmembers.

Please send e-mail to the listowners if you would like to contribute
to any of the following projects or have questions or suggestions. Our
work-in-progress on all of the below will soon be available via the
World Wide Web (URL t.b.a.). At present, most of the following still
languish in the "perpetual possibility" category, awaiting either an
influx of volunteers (This Means You) or a divine dispensation
allowing your listowners the time necessary to work on them before they
can emerge from the world of speculation into time present.

  A. The TSE ONLINE BIBLIOGRAPHY: A WWW-accessible guide to books
     about T. S. Eliot and related subjects.  We welcome brief reviews
     of books you're reading or have read.  Entries should be sent to
     me personally (Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>), and
     should be 200 words or less and include the facts of publication
     and a keyword list; I will do any superficial editing that may be
     necessary, post new entries to the list, and add them to the HTML
     version on the World Wide Web.  For more information, send me a
     note.

  B. T. S. ELIOT FAQ: An informational file like this one, except that
     it will be about our poet himself. It should cover basic
     biographical info, a chronology of the major writings, recommended
     books and/or articles, Eliot resources on the Internet, etc. 
     Suggestions and volunteers needed!

  C. ENGLISH (ETC.) TRANSLATIONS OF ELIOT'S FRENCH POEMS: If good
     translations exist of Eliot's four poems written in French c.
     1916, we don't know about them.  At least two listmembers have
     essayed informal cribs for their own use, however.  Let's
     collaborate--and we needn't limit ourselves to English, if anyone
     would like to contribute translations into other languages.  We
     plan to make the results available to everyone via the list and
     the World Wide Web.

  D. NAME INDEX TO THE UNCOLLECTED PROSE: The relative inaccessibility
     of the large amount of writing excluded from the _Selected Essays_
     and other available compilations has frustrated many a scholar
     working on Eliot.  Our goal in this project (as yet in its
     infancy) is to produce a WWW-accessible resource allowing
     researchers easily to determine in which of the uncollected essays
     and reviews Eliot mentions a particular author, thinker,
     historical figure, etc.  In practical terms, this will mean
     parceling out the entries in Gallup's bibliography among
     interested list members, who will then submit a list of the names
     mentioned in each for the index.  A side benefit might be the
     creation of a central photocopy archive of the uncollected prose
     publications here at the University of Missouri, from which we
     could mail out copies of hard-to-find items to interested
     researchers.


6. HOW DO I MAKE THE LISTPROC DO MY BIDDING?

Rule 1:  All listproc commands must be addressed to 
         [log in to unmask], *NOT* to [log in to unmask]
         This includes unsubscribe requests. The Subject lines of all 
         messages sent to the listproc should be left  blank (Subject 
         lines being for the convenience of human beings, whereas the
         listproc is a mindless computer program).

Rule 2:  A useful helpfile may be obtained by sending the one-line
         message HELP to [log in to unmask] (leaving the 
         Subject line blank, as mentioned above).

If, in spite of your strict observance of Rules 1 and 2, you are unable
to bend the listproc to your will, send a note to either of the
listowners and we will do our best to rectify the situation.


7. HOW DO I ACCESS THE TSE LIST ARCHIVES?

Everything posted to TSE is automatically archived on our local computer
system here at the University of Missouri. You can access these archives
using any gopher client by connecting to gopher.missouri.edu, and
following the menus to "Campus Information & Gopher Servers," "Archives
of Local Listservs," and "TSE."

If you are using Netscape or another web browser as your gopher client,
the URL is gopher://gopher.missouri.edu:70/11/campus/archives/tse/

The archive is organized by month, with each month identified by a
filename of the form "tse.log9601" (for January 1996, e.g.). Within
months, you can browse or search the individual messages by Subject line
(another reason, btw, to use and retain descriptive Subject lines: it
makes life much easier for people browsing the archives).


8. WHERE CAN I FIND MORE INFORMATION?

Eventually, we plan to have a nifty World Wide Web site incorporating
some of the collaborative resources mentioned in section 5, above. Stay
tuned. In addition, you will certainly want to peruse the two WWW sites
already devoted to Eliot and his work: 

  The T. S. Eliot Home Page (maintained by listmember Bruce Ong),
     http://www.next.com/~bong/eliot/index.html

  What the Thunder Said (maintained by listmember Raymond Camden at 
     the University of Southwestern Louisiana English Department),
     http://www.cacs.usl.edu/Departments/English/authors/eliot/index.html

Both sites include links to Eliot texts (and parodies) on the net.

TSE subscribers may also be interested in the ModBrits list, a moderated
discussion list devoted to Modern British and Irish literature,
1895-1955. To subscribe to MODBRITS, send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]

A survey of the many thousands of print resources devoted to Eliot is
beyond the feasible scope of this document, though our eventual T. S.
Eliot FAQ and online bibliography will provide a start in that
direction.

Please feel free to send questions and suggestions to the list, or to
either of the listowners, Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]> and
Timothy Materer <[log in to unmask]>, whose e-mail addresses you
may have noticed repeated like a mantra every few lines throughout the
foregoing.

___________________________________________________________
Greg Foster                  | "Fine art is the refinement,
<[log in to unmask]>  | not the antithesis, of
TSE <[log in to unmask]> | popular art." -- T. S. Eliot


From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb  3 03:01:44 1996
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 03:01:58 -0600
Subject: Re: TSE on Poe & Whitman
Reply-to: Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23)

Jonathan Crowther asks:
> 6.   Did Eliot ever say anything nice about Poe or Whitman?
> 

Actually, yes, though his remarks were always and characteristically qualified. 
On Poe, see "From Poe to Valery" (1948)in _To Criticize the Critic_ in
addition to numerous briefer mentions.  We might also note the ghostly presence
of Poe's "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" on "Sweeney Erect" as an answer to
Eliot's musings in the essay as to whether he had been influenced by Poe.

On Whitman, Eliot was less equivocal, at least in a brief talk of 1944 on "Walt
Whitman and Modern Poetry" transcribed by Donald Gallup in "Mr. Eliot at the
Churchill Club" (in James Olney, ed., _T. S. Eliot: Essays from the Southern
Review_ [Oxford: Oxford UP, 1988], 97-101).  Among other things, Eliot remarked
that Whitman was a greater poet than Tennyson and compared him in depth and
universality to Wordsworth. He also said, however, that he never read Whitman
properly until he was too old to be influenced by him.

Greg Foster
******************************************************************************
"That my mind became developed through my pursuits during the voyage [of the
_Beagle_], is rendered probable by a remark made by my father, who was the
most acute observer whom I ever saw, . . . for on first seeing me after the
voyage, he turned round to my sisters and exclaimed, 'Why, the shape of his
head is quite altered.'" --Darwin
******************************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb  3 18:11:27 1996
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 id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Sat,
 03 Feb 1996 16:10:21 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 16:10:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Eliot and the Tibetan Book of the Dead
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-VMS-To: TSE
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

A friend asked the other day if the scenes in "Little Gidding"
describing the destruction of war, "Dust inbreathed is a house"
&c. might have been inspired by related concepts in the TIBETAN
BOOK OF THE DEAD. I certainly don't remember TTBD being of great
interest to Eliot, but then I can't imagine his not having read
it. I know he had a big interest in the vedanta early in his career.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************

From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 01:46:20 1996
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Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 23:46:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Spamboy <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Such Small Hands
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I have searched and searched for years to find a poem, supposedly written 
by T.S. Eliot, and its' last three words are "such small hands".  If any 
of you know what the title of that poem is, or could type me a copy or 
something, I'd be so grateful it wouldn't be funny.  I've actually 
written a piano piece based on that poem, but the only words I've 
remembered of it were the last three.  I would appreciate any help.  
Thanks in advance.

Randy Budnikas        * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  [log in to unmask]  
8182 Glengarry Green  *SPACE MONKEY ENTERPRISES *           714-522-BITE
Buena Park, CA 90621  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * fax/modem:714-522-6323


From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 03:03:49 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 03:10:18 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Such Small Hands
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

	The poem is by e. e. cummings.


			somewhere i have never traveled

	somewhere i have never traveled,gladly beyond
	any experiences,your eyes have their silence:
	in your most frail gesture are things which enclose me,
	or which i cannot touch because they are too near

	your slightest look easily will unclose me
	though i have closed myself as fingers,
	you open always petal by petal myself as Spring opens
	(touch skilfully,mysteriously) her first rose

	or if your wish be to close me,i and
	my life will shut very beautifully,suddenly
	as when the heart of this flower imagines
	the snow carefully everywhere descending

	nothing which we are to perceive in this world equals
	the power of your intense fragility:whose texture
	compels me with the colour of its countries,
	rendering death and forever with each breathing

	(i do not know what it is about you that closes
	and opens;only something in me understands
	the voice of your eyes is deeper than all roses)
	nobody,not even the rain,has such small hands

				*

					--John Gilgun, St Joseph MO


On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, Spamboy wrote:

> I have searched and searched for years to find a poem, supposedly written 
> by T.S. Eliot, and its' last three words are "such small hands".  If any 
> of you know what the title of that poem is, or could type me a copy or 
> something, I'd be so grateful it wouldn't be funny.  I've actually 
> written a piano piece based on that poem, but the only words I've 
> remembered of it were the last three.  I would appreciate any help.  
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Randy Budnikas        * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  [log in to unmask]  
> 8182 Glengarry Green  *SPACE MONKEY ENTERPRISES *           714-522-BITE
> Buena Park, CA 90621  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * fax/modem:714-522-6323
> 
> 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 05:56:17 1996
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 06:55:31 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Martin Hubbard)
Subject: Re: Eliot and the Tibetan Book of the Dead
X-Mailer: <PC Eudora Version 1.4>

>A friend asked the other day if the scenes in "Little Gidding"
>describing the destruction of war, "Dust inbreathed is a house"
>&c. might have been inspired by related concepts in the TIBETAN
>BOOK OF THE DEAD. I certainly don't remember TTBD being of great
>interest to Eliot, but then I can't imagine his not having read
>it. I know he had a big interest in the vedanta early in his career.
>
>Any thoughts?

My understanding (drawn, I think, from Robert Sencourt's memoir of Eliot, 
though it may have been from William Turner Levey's) was that that passage 
was inspired originally by Eliot having been doing fire-watch on the roof of 
the Faber & Faber building in London, during the blitz.  Mind you, what 
other sources he may have woven into the idea subsequently there's no telling.

Martin Hubbard  [log in to unmask]


Martin Hubbard [log in to unmask]

CompuServe 71763,3250   FidoNet 1:163/530

From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 06:52:23 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 07:52:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: Re: Such Small Hands
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I believe that poem is by ee cummings & it was quoted in the movie
Hannah & Her Sisters.  I'm not at school so can't get my hands
on the actual poem.  Sorry

Virginia Conn
From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 13:35:28 1996
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From: "Mason West" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 13:31:22 +0000
Subject: Re: Such Small Hands
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Randy --

   Paraphrasing, possibly badly, the lines

      "Nobody, not even the rain, has such small hands."

   Were penned not by Eliot but by e.e. cummings.  The lines were 
used in Woody Allen's movie, Hannah and Her Sisters.  You could 
probably find the title of the poem there, though a good anthology of 
e.e. cummings would provide a pleasure just in the search.

-- Mason



> I have searched and searched for years to find a poem, supposedly written 
> by T.S. Eliot, and its' last three words are "such small hands".  If any 
> of you know what the title of that poem is, or could type me a copy or 
> something, I'd be so grateful it wouldn't be funny.  I've actually 
> written a piano piece based on that poem, but the only words I've 
> remembered of it were the last three.  I would appreciate any help.  
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Randy Budnikas        * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  [log in to unmask]  
> 8182 Glengarry Green  *SPACE MONKEY ENTERPRISES *           714-522-BITE
> Buena Park, CA 90621  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * fax/modem:714-522-6323
> 
> 
> 
> 
---
Work on the 'Net:  the 'Net works!
                           -- The DMW Idea Company
                                  [log in to unmask]
               http://www.pobox.com/~mason/DMWIdea

    Mason's home page: http://www.pobox.com/~mason

From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 16:29:49 1996
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Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 14:29:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Eliot and the Tibetan Book of the Dead
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On Sunday, 04 Feb 1996, at 06:55:31,
thus spake Martin Hubbard:

MH>My understanding (drawn, I think, from Robert Sencourt's memoir of Eliot, 
MH>though it may have been from William Turner Levey's) was that that passage 
MH>was inspired originally by Eliot having been doing fire-watch on the roof
MH>of the Faber & Faber building in London, during the blitz.

No question about that. It's well documented in several commentaries,
not the least of which is "Little Gidding", itself.

MH> Mind you, what other sources he may have woven into the idea
MH>subsequently there's no telling.

That is for sure; the reference to the intolerable shirt of flame
would be an example.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 19:12:22 1996
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From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:12:06 -0600
Subject: Re: Eliot and the Tibetan Book of the Dead
Reply-to: Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>
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> >A friend asked the other day if the scenes in "Little Gidding"
> >describing the destruction of war, "Dust inbreathed is a house"
> >&c. might have been inspired by related concepts in the TIBETAN
> >BOOK OF THE DEAD.
....
> >Any thoughts?
> 
> My understanding (drawn, I think, from Robert Sencourt's memoir of Eliot, 
> though it may have been from William Turner Levey's) was that that passage 
> was inspired originally by Eliot having been doing fire-watch on the roof of 
> the Faber & Faber building in London, during the blitz.

Yes, it is Levy's, from the account of their first meeting on 26 July 1948:

          In the course of our conversation I had mentioned how
     impressed I was with the dignity and reserve of both Russell
     Square and the building of Faber & Faber.  Eliot responded by
     telling me that during the war he ahd been a fire watcher
     stationed on the roof of Faber & Faber: "We had to watch the fires
     and report them as quickly as they occurred.  You will be
     interested to know that the lines from 'Little Gidding' came out
     of this experience."
          He then recited his own words from that poem, which is the
     last of the _Four Quartets_:

          Ash on an old man's sleeve
          Is all the ash the burnt roses leave.
          Dust in the air suspended
          Marks the place where a story ended.
          Dust inbreathed was a house--
          The wall, the wainscot and the mouse.
          The death of hope and despair,
               This is the death of air.

          For the first time I heard the poet speak his own verse, and
     I was deeply moved.
          "You see," Eliot remembered, "during the Blitz the
     accumulated debris was suspended in the London air for hours after
     a bombing.  Then it would slowly descend and cover one's sleeves
     and coat with a fine white ash.  I often experienced this effect
     during long night hours on the roof."

          (William Turner Levy and Victor Scherle, _Affectionately,
           T. S. Eliot: The Story of a Friendship: 1947-1965_.
           [Philadelphia: J. P. Lippincott, 1968], 14-15)

Greg Foster
******************************************************************************
"That my mind became developed through my pursuits during the voyage [of the
_Beagle_], is rendered probable by a remark made by my father, who was the
most acute observer whom I ever saw, . . . for on first seeing me after the
voyage, he turned round to my sisters and exclaimed, 'Why, the shape of his
head is quite altered.'" --Darwin
******************************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 20:38:48 1996
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Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 18:38:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Eliot and the Tibetan Book of the Dead
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Sunday, 04 Feb 1996, at 19:12:06,
thus spake Greg Foster:

GF>          "You see," Eliot remembered, "during the Blitz the
GF>     accumulated debris was suspended in the London air for hours after
GF>     a bombing.  Then it would slowly descend and cover one's sleeves
GF>     and coat with a fine white ash.  I often experienced this effect
GF>     during long night hours on the roof."
GF>
GF>          (William Turner Levy and Victor Scherle, _Affectionately,
GF>           T. S. Eliot: The Story of a Friendship: 1947-1965_.
GF>           [Philadelphia: J. P. Lippincott, 1968], 14-15)

That's wonderful. Thank you very much.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 20:45:46 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:45:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Spamboy <[log in to unmask]>
To: "T.S. Eliot" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Such Small Hands
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You guys don't know what a relief it is for me to know the name of that 
poem.  I'm flattered by the response.  Extra points to John Gilgun for 
actually writing the poem out for me.  You are a prince.  I can get on 
with my life now.  Thanks again.

Randy Budnikas        * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  [log in to unmask]  
8182 Glengarry Green  *SPACE MONKEY ENTERPRISES *           714-522-BITE
Buena Park, CA 90621  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * fax/modem:714-522-6323



From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 20:56:25 1996
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Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 18:55:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Such Small Hands
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On Sunday, 04 Feb 1996, at 18:45:42,
thus spake Spamboy:

S>You guys don't know what a relief it is for me to know the name of that 
S>poem.  I'm flattered by the response.  Extra points to John Gilgun for 
S>actually writing the poem out for me.  You are a prince.  I can get on 
S>with my life now.  Thanks again.

If you liked that one so much, you enjoy the following:


i thank You God for most this amazing

i thank You God for most this amazing
day:for the leaping greenly spirits of trees
and a blue true dream of sky;and for everything
which is natural which is infinite which is yes

(i who have died am alive again today,
and this is the sun's birthday; this is the birth
day of life and of love and wings: and of the gay
great happening illimitably earth)

how should tasting touching hearing seeing
breathing any -- lifted from the no
of all nothing -- human merely being
doubt unimaginable You?

(now the ears of my ears awake and
now the eyes of my eyes are opened)

e.e.cummings
From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 21:10:38 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:10:38 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: Re: Such Small Hands
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Randy, I think the poem is by e. e. cummings not TSE--ends with something 
like, only the rain has such small hands.  I'll check it out on Mon. and 
Tues. and let you know if someone doesn't identify it before that. TimM
> 
> I have searched and searched for years to find a poem, supposedly written 
> by T.S. Eliot, and its' last three words are "such small hands".  If any 
> of you know what the title of that poem is, or could type me a copy or 
> something, I'd be so grateful it wouldn't be funny.  I've actually 
> written a piano piece based on that poem, but the only words I've 
> remembered of it were the last three.  I would appreciate any help.  
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Randy Budnikas        * * * * * * * * * * * * * *  [log in to unmask]  
> 8182 Glengarry Green  *SPACE MONKEY ENTERPRISES *           714-522-BITE
> Buena Park, CA 90621  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * fax/modem:714-522-6323
> 
> 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 21:26:33 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:30:44 -0800
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Warren Wilson)
Subject: Re: Eliot and the Tibetan Book of the Dead

Greg Foster wrote:

>          He then recited his own words from that poem, which is the
>     last of the _Four Quartets_:
>
>          Ash on an old man's sleeve
>          Is all the ash the burnt roses leave.
>          Dust in the air suspended
>          Marks the place where a story ended.
>          Dust inbreathed was a house--
>          The wall, the wainscot and the mouse.
>          The death of hope and despair,
>               This is the death of air.
>

I am reminded that lines soon after those quoted above arise from the same
experience of the poet:

In the uncertain hour before the morning
        Near the ending of the interminable night
        At the recurrent end of the unending
After the dark dove with the flickering tongue
        Had passed below the horizon of his homing.......

Warren Wilson
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 21:32:05 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:31:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Such Small Hands
To: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Peter:

	We may be onto something here, perhaps a nascent hybrid forum, the
tse.e.cumnmings list.  An initial posting might include a decapitalized &
unpunctuated rendition of Henry Reed's "Chard Whitlow": 

(Mr. Eliot's Sunday Evening Postscript)

As we get older we do not get any younger.
Seasons return, and today I am fifty-five,
And this time last year I was fifty-four,
And this time next year I shall be sixty-two.
And I cannot say I should like (to speak for myself)
To see my time over again--if you can call it time:
Fidgeting uneasily under a drafty stair,
Or counting sleepless nights in the crowded tube.

[Etc.]


(See Dwight Macdonald's "Parodies: An Anthology from Chaucer to 
Beehbohm--and After."  NY: Random House, 1960.  pp.218-223.) 

		
				PWS/Washington, D.C.
				Sunday Evening

From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb  4 21:56:06 1996
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Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 19:55:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Such Small Hands
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Sunday, 04 Feb 1996, at 22:31:53,
thus spake Paul Sonnenburg:

PS>         We may be onto something here, perhaps a nascent hybrid forum,
PS> the tse.e.cumnmings list.

Well there would certainly be room for a list to do with satiric poetry:

I scoffed this long ago off of a list called words-l. The fellow
who wrote it is Swedish. (Satire on Donne)



From: [log in to unmask]

                    Goe, and catche that clown Tushar,
                      And force him to explain his Wit,
                    Tell mee who those with real lives are
                      And who is or is not a Twit.
                    Teach mee to read every posting
                    And to tell the truth from boasting
                            And groan
                            Alone
                    When the listserv's down and I lie prone.

                    If thou beest borne to strange Joys,
                      To Chattering that knowes no Rest,
                    And never play with girls (or boys)
                      When there is email to digest,
                    Then you will knowe the true Meaning
                    Of that most important Gleaning,
                            That words,
                            like surds
                    Are the prerogative of Nerds.

                    But yet, whatever scoffing fall
                      Upon my head, it matters nought,
                    For when I hear my Godess call
                      I know the Change that shee hath wrought.
                    My words that once were spilt so emptily
                    Now fall upon the Ears of Natalie
                            And so
                            I go
                    To bed each night in a Wordy glow.
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 03:14:03 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 03:20:34 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Such Small Hands
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	And this--:

		when god lets my body be

	when god lets my body be

	From each brave eye shall sprout a tree
	fruit that dangles therefrom

	the purpled world will dance upon
	Between my lips which did sing

	a rose shall beget the spring
	that maidens whom passion wastes

	will lay between their little breasts
	my strong fingers beneath the snow

	Into strenuous birds shall go
	my love walking in the grass

	their wings will touch with her face
	and all the while shall my heart be

	With the bulge and nuzzle of the sea

			--e. e. cummings

			*

					--John Gilgun
	

On Sun, 4 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> On Sunday, 04 Feb 1996, at 18:45:42,
> thus spake Spamboy:
> 
> S>You guys don't know what a relief it is for me to know the name of that 
> S>poem.  I'm flattered by the response.  Extra points to John Gilgun for 
> S>actually writing the poem out for me.  You are a prince.  I can get on 
> S>with my life now.  Thanks again.
> 
> If you liked that one so much, you enjoy the following:
> 
> 
> i thank You God for most this amazing
> 
> i thank You God for most this amazing
> day:for the leaping greenly spirits of trees
> and a blue true dream of sky;and for everything
> which is natural which is infinite which is yes
> 
> (i who have died am alive again today,
> and this is the sun's birthday; this is the birth
> day of life and of love and wings: and of the gay
> great happening illimitably earth)
> 
> how should tasting touching hearing seeing
> breathing any -- lifted from the no
> of all nothing -- human merely being
> doubt unimaginable You?
> 
> (now the ears of my ears awake and
> now the eyes of my eyes are opened)
> 
> e.e.cummings
> 
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 03:57:24 1996
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 01:56:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Such Small Hands
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 05 Feb 1996, at 03:20:34,
thus spake John Gilgun:

JG>	a rose shall beget the spring
JG>	that maidens whom passion wastes
JG>
JG>	will lay between their little breasts

cummings always makes me think of Shakespeare, without all the
complications. I suppose he's as much the naturalistic mystic
that Eliot is the intellectual one. The above lines bring us
right back to:

          Ash on an old man's sleeve
          Is all the ash the burnt roses leave.


Cheers, I think,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 06:39:33 1996
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Date: 	Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:31:19 -0300
Subject:       Burnt Norton
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When Thomas Stearns Eliot published the first of his Four Quartets, 
Burnt Norton, he was 47. It seems that by that time, he had elaborated 
on the historical condition of humans, and the inescapable sequels this
brings about: involuntary memory and the question of identity.

The first verses of Part I of Burnt Norton read:

Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
....
What might have been  and what has been
Point to one end, which is always present.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In other words, we are not only what we have been, we are also what 
we have not and what we might have. This, to my mind,  encompasses 
human essentially historical identity.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

TSE goes on:

Footfalls echo in the memory
Down the passage which we did not take
Towards the door we never opened
....
    Other echoes
Inhabit the garden, Shall we follow?
Quick, said the bird, find them, find them,
Round the corner. Through the first gate,
Into our first world, shall we follow 
The deception of the thrush? Into our first world.
There they were, dignified, invisible
....
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When we enter the rose-garden, we enter the world of nether, the 
world of involuntary memory. Those memories one just runs into by 
chance, not by purpose. The thrush deceives us into thinking we may 
find those memories that are irretrievable, that's why he says "There 
they were, dignified, invisible", that is untouched, unavailable.

This is just a brief example of TSE's deep insight of human mind, 
which other professional psychologists haven't even touched upon.

--JC Garelli

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
John C. Garelli, M.D., Ph.D.
Department of Psychopathology
University of Buenos Aires
Juncal 1966, 1116 BA, Argentina
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
       
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 07:55:41 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 13:55 GMT
From: Martin Oldfield <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Burnt Norton
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v03.19.01.

>>>>> "JC" == JCG  <[log in to unmask]> writes:

    JC> When Thomas Stearns Eliot published the first of his Four
    JC> Quartets, Burnt Norton, he was 47. It seems that by that time,
    JC> he had elaborated on the historical condition of humans, and
    JC> the inescapable sequels this brings about: involuntary memory
    JC> and the question of identity.

    JC> The first verses of Part I of Burnt Norton read:

    JC> Time present and time past Are both perhaps present in time
    JC> future, And time future contained in time past.  ...  What
    JC> might have been and what has been Point to one end, which is
    JC> always present.

    JC> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In other words,
    JC> we are not only what we have been, we are also what we have
    JC> not and what we might have. This, to my mind, encompasses
    JC> human essentially historical identity.
    JC> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    JC> TSE goes on:

    JC> Footfalls echo in the memory Down the passage which we did not
    JC> take Towards the door we never opened ...  Other echoes

You stop before `into the rose garden'. Isn't that the key line ?
Surely the rose garden alludes to a woman although the previous lines
suggest that the relationship never happened. If this is the case, and
especially if the use of `which we did not' is deliberate, this is one
of the bleakest lines around; the regret is palpable. Now `What might
have been, and what has been' read very differently: The former are
his hopes for future happiness, the latter his memories of the past
when the future seemed so rosey; his inability to forget those
emotions - though they clearly pain him - explain `which is always present'.

    JC> Inhabit the garden, Shall we follow?  Quick, said the bird,
    JC> find them, find them, Round the corner. Through the first
    JC> gate, Into our first world, shall we follow The deception of
    JC> the thrush? Into our first world.  There they were, dignified,
    JC> invisible ...  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


-- 
Martin Oldfield. Work: 01223 464800 Home: 01223 426232
You tamed the lion in my cage, but it wasn't enough to change my heart
  - Dylan
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 08:05:08 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:11:26 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Burnt Norton
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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	Consider purchasing:

		T.S. Eliot Reads. (Four Quartets. The Waste Land. The 
Hollow Men. and Other of His Poems.) Caedmon. An Imprint of Harper Audio. 
A Division of harperCollins Publisher, 10 East 53rd St., NYC 10022. ISBN: 
1-55994-569-9. Price: $19.00. 
					--John Gilgun 

On Mon, 5 Feb 1996 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> When Thomas Stearns Eliot published the first of his Four Quartets, 
> Burnt Norton, he was 47. It seems that by that time, he had elaborated 
> on the historical condition of humans, and the inescapable sequels this
> brings about: involuntary memory and the question of identity.
> 
> The first verses of Part I of Burnt Norton read:
> 
> Time present and time past
> Are both perhaps present in time future,
> And time future contained in time past.
> ...
> What might have been  and what has been
> Point to one end, which is always present.
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> In other words, we are not only what we have been, we are also what 
> we have not and what we might have. This, to my mind,  encompasses 
> human essentially historical identity.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> TSE goes on:
> 
> Footfalls echo in the memory
> Down the passage which we did not take
> Towards the door we never opened
> ...
>     Other echoes
> Inhabit the garden, Shall we follow?
> Quick, said the bird, find them, find them,
> Round the corner. Through the first gate,
> Into our first world, shall we follow 
> The deception of the thrush? Into our first world.
> There they were, dignified, invisible
> ...
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> When we enter the rose-garden, we enter the world of nether, the 
> world of involuntary memory. Those memories one just runs into by 
> chance, not by purpose. The thrush deceives us into thinking we may 
> find those memories that are irretrievable, that's why he says "There 
> they were, dignified, invisible", that is untouched, unavailable.
> 
> This is just a brief example of TSE's deep insight of human mind, 
> which other professional psychologists haven't even touched upon.
> 
> --JC Garelli
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> John C. Garelli, M.D., Ph.D.
> Department of Psychopathology
> University of Buenos Aires
> Juncal 1966, 1116 BA, Argentina
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>        
> 
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 08:18:49 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:18:43 PST
From: Tim Redman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: to introduce myself
To: [log in to unmask]
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Dear Greg,

	My name is Tim Redman, and I am an associate professor of literary 
studies at the University of Texas at Dallas.  Most of my work to date has been 
on Ezra Pound ("Ezra Pound and Italian Fascism" Cambridge UP 1991) and I 
am currently working on a biography of Pound for Scribner's.  I also teach Dante.

					Cordially,

					Tim Redman


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 08:20:12 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:20:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Bob Canary <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Burnt Norton
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, Martin Oldfield wrote:

> Surely the rose garden alludes to a woman although the previous lines
> suggest that the relationship never happened. . . .

The rose garden is a real rose garden in Burnt Norton, and the woman with 
whom he walked is almost certainly Emily Hale, whose long correspondence 
with Eliot is locked up at Princeton.  The relationship was real though 
probably not sexual.

From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 08:40:23 1996
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 09:39:25 -0500
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From: [log in to unmask] (Martin Hubbard)
Subject: Re: Eliot and the Tibetan Book of the Dead
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>
>Yes, it is Levy's, from the account of their first meeting on 26 July 1948:
>

Thank you for the reference and the quotation.

I have the Levey book somewhere, but my personal bookstacks tending, due to 
lack of sufficient space, to be actual `stacks' I was unable to put paw to 
the volume when writing.

Do you know the Sencourt memoir?  It is unapologetically precisely that, but 
offers some excellent insights, particularly into Eliot's first marriage and 
into his religious beliefs.

Martin

[log in to unmask]


------------------------------------------------------------------------

       Martin Hubbard [log in to unmask]

       CompuServe 71763,3250   FidoNet 1:163/530

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 11:33:16 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:40:56 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Booberry)
Subject: Re: Burnt Norton

>JC> Footfalls echo in the memory Down the passage which we did not JC>
>take Towards the door we never opened ... Other echoes

>You stop before `into the rose garden'. Isn't that the key line ? Surely
>the rose garden alludes to a woman although the previous lines suggest
>that the relationship never happened.



****Look to "The Burial of the Dead" for another example of Eliot
associating a flower garden with a woman, usually a sensual, unattainable
woman, much like as in Prufrock's dilemma:

        'You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
        'They call me the hyacinth girl.'
        -Yet when we came back, late, from the hyacinth garden,
        Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
        Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
        Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
        Looking into the heart of light, the silence.




****Also, JC Garelli should study the third quartet, "The Dry Salvages,"
because it addresses the same memory and time sequence issue as "Burnt
Norton":


        It seems, as one becomes older,
        That the past has another pattern, and ceases to be a mere
                sequence-


JT


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 15:26:57 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:33:29 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
In-Reply-To: <v02130501ad3bef427017@[128.148.114.16]>
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	I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America 
Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche, 
suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern 
poet and only one modern poet for one month."
	If you were to read Eliot and nothing but Eliot for one month, 
how would you do it? Would you read four poems a day? Would you begin 
with the plays? The criticism? What?
	I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.

				--John Gilgun 
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 15:53:08 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:55:14 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Mark Laskowski)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

John:

        I'm one of the uneducated minnows in this sea or scholars, but I
find Eliot's poetry fascinating and so I signed on for the ride when I
discovered this listserve.  I would begin by reading THE SACRED WOOD, a
book of Eliot's literary criticsim.  Digesting these essays will give you
different insights into Eliot's own work.  Four poems a day would be too
much, I think.  His work has a density that would preclude a four-a-day
regimen.  It would be like eating too much rich food at one sitting.  Luck,
faith, practice.

m. laskowski


>        I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America
>Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche,
>suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern
>poet and only one modern poet for one month."
>        If you were to read Eliot and nothing but Eliot for one month,
>how would you do it? Would you read four poems a day? Would you begin
>with the plays? The criticism? What?
>        I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.
>
>                                --John Gilgun


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 17:09:28 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:08:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Leon Surette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: [log in to unmask]
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On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:

> 	I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America 
> Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche, 
> suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern 
> poet and only one modern poet for one month."
> 	If you were to read Eliot and nothing but Eliot for one month, 
> how would you do it? Would you read four poems a day? Would you begin 
> with the plays? The criticism? What?
> 	I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.
> 
> 				--John Gilgun 
> 
I would suggest that you read TSE's works in chronological order, reading 
poetry and criticism simultaneously (that is, serially, but reading 1917 
essays along with 1917 poems, and so forth). Eliot's output is relatively 
small, so I would think you could read all of the poetry and critical 
prose in a month if you weren't doing anything else. But it would 
probably be more prudent to read _Selected Criticism_ and the poetry, 
plus any of the plays you had time for.

Leon Surette			Email: [log in to unmask]
Department of English           Fax: 519-661-3776
The University of Western Ontario
London, Ontario
N6A 3K7

From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 17:09:43 1996
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: Re: Assignment.

John, 

I would definitely start with actually reading Eliot's poems....start with
The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock....in fact, read it aloud!  Go on and
read all the rest of the poems at whatever pace seems right for you. Let the
masterful imagery and magical words with their rhythm hook you, for they
surely will.  

Later on there will be time to pursue Eliot's own criticism and the sea of
other critics. I still find the same gasps of delight reading Eliot as I did
when I first read his poetry, but now, many years later, I find new meanings
in the words.  That is exactly what good poetry should do!

Cheers, V.T.


 

From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 17:57:00 1996
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 05 Feb 1996 15:56:18 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 15:56:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Burnt Norton
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 05 Feb 1996, at 09:31:19,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

J>    Other echoes
J>Inhabit the garden, Shall we follow?
J>Quick, said the bird, find them, find them,
J>Round the corner. Through the first gate,
J>Into our first world, shall we follow 
J>The deception of the thrush? Into our first world.
J>There they were, dignified, invisible
J>...
J>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
J>When we enter the rose-garden, we enter the world of nether, the 
J>world of involuntary memory. Those memories one just runs into by 
J>chance, not by purpose. The thrush deceives us into thinking we may 
J>find those memories that are irretrievable, that's why he says "There 
J>they were, dignified, invisible", that is untouched, unavailable.

You may wish to check out George MacDonald's novel, LILITH
to find a set of images compatible with what you are observing.
I have a paper coming out, soon I hope, on some striking
similarities, to do with roses and children.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 19:02:58 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:02:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
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John:

	Your query will surely elicit diverse biases.  Let us posit that
the function of your month's immersion in Eliot is to come away with as
rich and representative a sense of the poet's work as you can.  The
implication of the assignment suggests a focus on Eliot's poetic
achievement among his generally acknowledged accomplishments as a literary
and social critic, playwright, and editor. 

	The received wisdom is that Eliot's poetic development and early 
critical exposition may be viewed as a binary construct, each 
illuminating the other. And so it may be argued that at least a review of 
the principal essays will be useful: Frank Kermode's "Selected Prose of 
T.S. Eliot," London: Faber & Faber, 1975, provides a perfectly adequate 
sampling of the literary and social criticism for your immediate purpose.

	Clearly your central focus ought to be the poems, probably most 
efficiently accessible in "TSE: Collected Poems, 1909-1962," or "TSE: The 
Complete Poems & Plays, 1909-1950."  The latter's advantage is the 
plays:  because Eliot's career-long devotion to reuniting verse and drama 
reflected so intimately his poetic vision, your project ought to embrace 
a play or two.  I suspect that I'll find few objections to beginning with 
"Murder in the Cathedral" as a particularly satisfying exemplar of 
Eliot's project and the most effective of his forays into the theater, 
pageant-like though it may be.  You can read the remaining plays in your 
second month.

	You'll be showered, no doubt, with recommendations about the 
poems.  The canon being relatively small, peruse as your fancy takes you 
once you have explored the "core"-- Prufrock, et seq of 1917; The 
Wasteland, The Hollow Men, Ash-Wednesday, the Ariel Poems, and Four 
Quartets.  "Choruses from The Rock" includes some particularly felicitous 
lines.

	As with all first-order poets, Eliot's work steadily repays all 
the effort you may invest, its resonance and centrality only deepened 
with familiarity.  My own favorites are the Quartets, touchstones among 
modern poetry.

	Enjoy your month!

						PWS
						Washington, DC
						5 February 1996
	


				*****


On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:

> 	I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America 
> Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche, 
> suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern 
> poet and only one modern poet for one month."
> 	If you were to read Eliot and nothing but Eliot for one month, 
> how would you do it? Would you read four poems a day? Would you begin 
> with the plays? The criticism? What?
> 	I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.
> 
> 				--John Gilgun 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb  5 20:28:16 1996
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From: [log in to unmask] (nicki russum)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

  I evedropped and want to thank you for your suggestions as to how to
receive the wisdom of Eliot.

love in learning...nicki>
>John:
>
>	Your query will surely elicit diverse biases.  Let us posit that
>the function of your month's immersion in Eliot is to come away with as
>rich and representative a sense of the poet's work as you can.  The
>implication of the assignment suggests a focus on Eliot's poetic
>achievement among his generally acknowledged accomplishments as a literary
>and social critic, playwright, and editor. 
>
>	The received wisdom is that Eliot's poetic development and early 
>cr
>> 	I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America 
>> Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche, 
>> suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern 
>> poet and only one modern poet for one month."
>> 	If you were to read Eliot and nothing but Eliot for one month, 
>> how would you do it? Would you read four poems a day? Would you begin 
>> with the plays? The criticism? What?
>> 	I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.
>> 
>> 				--John Gilgun 
>> 
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 07:02:45 1996
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Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 07:46:19 -0500
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From: [log in to unmask] (Martin Hubbard)
Subject: Re: Assignment.
X-Mailer: <PC Eudora Version 1.4>

>	I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America 
>Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche, 
>suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern 
>poet and only one modern poet for one month."
>	If you were to read Eliot and nothing but Eliot for one month, 
>how would you do it? Would you read four poems a day? Would you begin 
>with the plays? The criticism? What?
>	I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.

I would certainly start with the poetry --- oddly enough, `Little Gidding' 
was the first I read and was so caught up in the imagery that I went back to 
the earlier works and read them largely in the same sequence as they were 
written.

When your month is finished, read a good biography of him and the poetry 
will fall into the context of his life --- at which point, if you still have 
the energy, the plays and the critical essays are ready for you.  But IMO 
the plays reflect the poets life so much (other than `Murder in the 
Cathedral') that you can miss the point if you don't know about the life.  
They're not THAT good, IMO, to stand terribly well on their own merits 
(though I may get into trouble for saying that!), though they're fascinating 
when read in context.

Martin


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 07:19:22 1996
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From: Russ MacKechnie <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.

At 06:08 PM 2/5/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:
>
>> 	I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America 
>> Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche, 
>> suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern 
>> poet and only one modern poet for one month."
>> 	If you were to read Eliot and nothing but Eliot for one month, 
>> how would you do it? Would you read four poems a day? Would you begin 
>> with the plays? The criticism? What?
>> 	I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.
>> 
>> 				--John Gilgun 
>> 
>I would suggest that you read TSE's works in chronological order, reading 
>poetry and criticism simultaneously (that is, serially, but reading 1917 
>essays along with 1917 poems, and so forth). Eliot's output is relatively 
>small, so I would think you could read all of the poetry and critical 
>prose in a month if you weren't doing anything else. But it would 
>probably be more prudent to read _Selected Criticism_ and the poetry, 
>plus any of the plays you had time for.
>
>Leon Surette			Email: [log in to unmask]
>Department of English           Fax: 519-661-3776
>The University of Western Ontario
>London, Ontario
>N6A 3K7
>
>
        With all due respect to Mr. Surette, I would take precisely the
opposite approach. A previous correspondent wrote that Eliot's work is
dense. It is. It can be plumbed in very limited doses for very long
stretches without one becoming bored or frustrated--just further enriched.

        I would use that month to read nothing but Four Quartets. (I have
carried my own dog-eared copy in my briefcase for years and often take it
out when on a plane or train in lieu of reading a magazine.) Take a small,
logically apportioned piece each day and study it closely. Do this for about
three weeks. Then use your final week to study how Eliot put the pieces
together the way he did--and try to fathom why. Never ceases to fascinate
me. . . .

                --  Russ MacKechnie  --



	All the best,

	                 --   Russ   --


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 07:23:27 1996
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From: "Mason West" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:46:15 +0000
Subject: Re: Such Small Macdonald Fragments
Reply-to: [log in to unmask]
Priority: normal
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Paul --

> (See Dwight Macdonald's "Parodies: An Anthology from Chaucer to 
> Beehbohm--and After."  NY: Random House, 1960.  pp.218-223.) 

I'm (pleasantly) surprised to see that anyone remembers Dwight
Macdonald these days.  I've discovered him through a disintegrating
paperback book that I'd love to replace with a whole copy -- I don't
know the title because the cover is also missing, but the book is a
collection of various reviews and criticisms he wrote (perhaps for
The New Yorker?).  I particularly enjoy his writing and insight and
that's why I hope to find this book in one piece someday. 

--- Mason West <[log in to unmask]>

    Mason's home page: http://www.pobox.com/~mason

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 11:05:40 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:05:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Kathleen Ricker <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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Leon Surrette writes:

> >I would suggest that you read TSE's works in chronological order, reading 
> >poetry and criticism simultaneously (that is, serially, but reading 1917 
> >essays along with 1917 poems, and so forth). Eliot's output is relatively 
> >small, so I would think you could read all of the poetry and critical 
> >prose in a month if you weren't doing anything else. But it would 
> >probably be more prudent to read _Selected Criticism_ and the poetry, 
> >plus any of the plays you had time for.
> >
> >Leon Surette			Email: [log in to unmask]

This is the approach to Mr. Gilgun's question which immediately sprang to my
mind.  Reading Eliot's work chronologically, pairing the poems and plays with
the critical essays he was writing simultaneously, would permit one to trace
the development of Eliot's poetics, politics, and theology and to look 
for ways in which certain texts contradicted or resisted others.  I 
would leave off the last poem to his second wife, however...I'd rather 
not end my month with that.

Russ McKechnie responds:

>         I would use that month to read nothing but Four Quartets. (I have
> carried my own dog-eared copy in my briefcase for years and often take it
> out when on a plane or train in lieu of reading a magazine.) Take a small,
> logically apportioned piece each day and study it closely. Do this for about
> three weeks. Then use your final week to study how Eliot put the pieces
> together the way he did--and try to fathom why. Never ceases to fascinate
> me. . . .
> 
>                 --  Russ MacKechnie  --

But I can see Mr. MacKechnie's point quite clearly -- and his observation
that Eliot is too dense to digest in large quantities in a brief period of
time brings up another possible objection, albeit a somewhat pedantic one --
to read Eliot and nothing but Eliot would be impossible simply because one
would not only be reading Eliot, but also Dante, Webster, Kyd, Shakespeare,
St. John of the Cross, Herodotus, etc.... 

One could make this argument about any text, surely, but few poets that I
have ever encountered seem to have taken the notion of intertextuality quite
as literally as Eliot did.  It's impossible for me to read *The Waste Land*
or *Ash Wednesday* now without hearing Dante's lines and images in my head --
and it's hard for me to attend an Episcopal service without occasionally
hearing Eliot's voice drowning out the priest's. 

I have to admit that it would be hard for me to force myself to stop with a
little of *Four Quartets* each day...I go to reread one movement of *Burnt
Norton* to look for a reference and in a while I realize that I'm halfway
through *Dry Salvages*... 

Kathleen Ricker


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 11:18:48 1996
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Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 10:16:30 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Gabriel Jones)
Subject: Re: Such Small Macdonald Fragments

the book you have is probably "Discriminations," a collection of essays from
1938 to 1974, published by Grossman; I don't think it's in print anymore --
I picked it up on a whim a few years back in a used book store (had never
heard of him) & have marvelled ever since at my serendipity ... 

There is a biography of Macdonald that just came out & got good reviews; I
don't think it's enough to signal a Macdonald Renaissance but at least it's
something. 

Gabe Jones 


>I'm (pleasantly) surprised to see that anyone remembers Dwight
>Macdonald these days.  I've discovered him through a disintegrating
>paperback book that I'd love to replace with a whole copy -- I don't
>know the title because the cover is also missing, but the book is a
>collection of various reviews and criticisms he wrote (perhaps for
>The New Yorker?).  I particularly enjoy his writing and insight and
>that's why I hope to find this book in one piece someday. 
>
>--- Mason West <[log in to unmask]>
>
>    Mason's home page: http://www.pobox.com/~mason
>
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 12:13:14 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:13:55 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: TSE trivia: NPR  and Fiona Shaw

1. Perhaps this is too trivial for trivia, but it was interesting to hear
TSE's "Preludes" read on National Public Radio--I think this past Friday.
Robert Segal (not sure about names) read it quite well. But Linda
Wortheimer's intro. made it rather clear that it was chosen because it was
depressing! Her "introductory" comments were about what a cold and awful
winter it was. Her final comment was that TSE experienced his winters in
Missouri.

2. An article in the Jan. 15, 1996 _Newsweek_ says of the actress Fiona
Shaw: "Just before Christmas she appeared on the BBC performing T. S.
Eliot's 1922 poem "The Waste Land." It was a virtuoso feat as she switched
personas with lightning speed, orchestrating Eliot's symphony of allusion,
rising to a climax of anguish that made the modernist classic a perfect
statement for the fractures of the century's end."  Did anyone see it?  Any
idea if it might appear on American TV?

Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 12:22:50 1996
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From: "Peter Quigley" <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 43 Text
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re[2]: Such Small Macdonald Fragments

he was recently discussed in The New Statesmen, a British political rag...this 
was probably spring or fall of 1995. He remember him appearing in Theodore 
Roszak's SOURCES: AN ANTHOLOGY OF MATERIALS USEFUL FOR PRESERVING PERSONAL 
SANITY WHILE BRAVING THE GREAT TECHNOLOGICAL WOLDERNESS...I think he also wrote 
on Robinson Jeffers approvingly...

_______________________________________________________________________________

Subject: Re: Such Small Macdonald Fragments

From:    [log in to unmask] at Internet-Mail

Date:    2/6/96  10:38 AM



the book you have is probably "Discriminations," a collection of essays from
1938 to 1974, published by Grossman; I don't think it's in print anymore --
I picked it up on a whim a few years back in a used book store (had never
heard of him) & have marvelled ever since at my serendipity ... 

There is a biography of Macdonald that just came out & got good reviews; I
don't think it's enough to signal a Macdonald Renaissance but at least it's
something. 

Gabe Jones 


>I'm (pleasantly) surprised to see that anyone remembers Dwight
>Macdonald these days.  I've discovered him through a disintegrating
>paperback book that I'd love to replace with a whole copy -- I don't
>know the title because the cover is also missing, but the book is a
>collection of various reviews and criticisms he wrote (perhaps for
>The New Yorker?).  I particularly enjoy his writing and insight and
>that's why I hope to find this book in one piece someday. 
>
>--- Mason West <[log in to unmask]>
>
>    Mason's home page: http://www.pobox.com/~mason
>
>
>


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 14:02:51 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:57:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Such Small Macdonald Fragments
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Gabe --

> the book you have is probably "Discriminations," a collection of
> essays from 1938 to 1974, published by Grossman; I don't think it's
> in print anymore -- I picked it up on a whim a few years back in a
> used book store (had never heard of him) & have marvelled ever
> since at my serendipity ... 

Although I'm under the impression that my Macdonald book fragment
pre-dates 1974 (a bit like doing archaeology, isn't it?), it could
be that the 1974 copy is a later edition of the same book.  At any
rate, this book sounds very much like it would do the trick, even if
it isn't the exact same book.  Thanks for the information. 

--- Mason West <[log in to unmask]>

    Mason's home page: http://www.pobox.com/~mason

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 14:23:50 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Russ MacKechnie <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.

Kathleen Ricker writes:

>
>Leon Surrette writes:
>
>> >I would suggest that you read TSE's works in chronological order, reading 
>> >poetry and criticism simultaneously (that is, serially, but reading 1917 
>> >essays along with 1917 poems, and so forth). Eliot's output is relatively 
>> >small, so I would think you could read all of the poetry and critical 
>> >prose in a month if you weren't doing anything else. But it would 
>> >probably be more prudent to read _Selected Criticism_ and the poetry, 
>> >plus any of the plays you had time for.
>> >
>> >Leon Surette			Email: [log in to unmask]
>
>This is the approach to Mr. Gilgun's question which immediately sprang to my
>mind.  Reading Eliot's work chronologically, pairing the poems and plays with
>the critical essays he was writing simultaneously, would permit one to trace
>the development of Eliot's poetics, politics, and theology and to look 
>for ways in which certain texts contradicted or resisted others.  I 
>would leave off the last poem to his second wife, however...I'd rather 
>not end my month with that.
>
>Russ McKechnie responds:
>
>>         I would use that month to read nothing but Four Quartets. (I have
>> carried my own dog-eared copy in my briefcase for years and often take it
>> out when on a plane or train in lieu of reading a magazine.) Take a small,
>> logically apportioned piece each day and study it closely. Do this for about
>> three weeks. Then use your final week to study how Eliot put the pieces
>> together the way he did--and try to fathom why. Never ceases to fascinate
>> me. . . .
>> 
>>                 --  Russ MacKechnie  --
>
>But I can see Mr. MacKechnie's point quite clearly -- and his observation
>that Eliot is too dense to digest in large quantities in a brief period of
>time brings up another possible objection, albeit a somewhat pedantic one --
>to read Eliot and nothing but Eliot would be impossible simply because one
>would not only be reading Eliot, but also Dante, Webster, Kyd, Shakespeare,
>St. John of the Cross, Herodotus, etc.... 
>
>One could make this argument about any text, surely, but few poets that I
>have ever encountered seem to have taken the notion of intertextuality quite
>as literally as Eliot did.  It's impossible for me to read *The Waste Land*
>or *Ash Wednesday* now without hearing Dante's lines and images in my head --
>and it's hard for me to attend an Episcopal service without occasionally
>hearing Eliot's voice drowning out the priest's. 
>
>I have to admit that it would be hard for me to force myself to stop with a
>little of *Four Quartets* each day...I go to reread one movement of *Burnt
>Norton* to look for a reference and in a while I realize that I'm halfway
>through *Dry Salvages*... 
>
>Kathleen Ricker
>
        Very well, Ms. Ricker, if compromise is what you require, then
compromise is what you will have:  a revision to my *Four Quartets* proposal---

        During the first week, read the entire poem through without stopping
to concentrate on individual passages or lines. During the second and third
weeks, divide the work into coherent sections and study them piecemeal.
During the final week, concentrate on structure and its relationship to
content. Perhaps, having followed the "read-it-through" technique of the
first week, when you begin the intricate work of analyzing details, you will
not be "distracted from distraction by distraction" but will instead arrive,
a la Forrest Gump's white feather, gently "[a]t the still point of the
turning world."

        As for me, the intense concentration on developing a suitable
one-month Eliot approach leads me to conclude that, were I you, I would bag
the entire project, drink umbrella-laden tropical drinks at poolside,
observe the opposite sex in appropriate stages of undress, and--if the mood
strikes--open Updike's latest. . . .


	All the best,

	                 --   Russ   --


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 16:43:29 1996
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From: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:

> 	I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America 
> Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche, 
> suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern 
> poet and only one modern poet for one month."
>
> 	I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.

Well, for one thing, John, I'd choose a modern poet, since that was what 
Forche suggested.  We can no more consider Eliot a modern poet in 1996, than 
Eliot in his day would have considered Tennyson a modern poet.

Nick 














From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 17:12:41 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:04:54 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Booberry)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

>On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:
>
>>       I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America
>> Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche,
>> suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern
>> poet and only one modern poet for one month."
>>
>>       I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.
>
>Well, for one thing, John, I'd choose a modern poet, since that was what
>Forche suggested.  We can no more consider Eliot a modern poet in 1996, than
>Eliot in his day would have considered Tennyson a modern poet.
>
>Nick


I agree with Nick.  When I first read John's post, Eliot did not come to
mind.  I would suggest John Ashberry, Charles Simic, Amiri Baraka, Stephen
Dobyns, or Carolyn Forche herself.  For an excellent collection of some
other moderns, check out "From the Other Side of the Century: A New
American Poetry 1960-1990," from Sun and Moon Press. Or check out some of
the poets published by Black Sparrow Press.  Sometimes it's good to step
away from Eliot for awhile.  One is amazed at what the REAL moderns are
doing with words.

[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 18:24:19 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.

It seems to me that we need to make a distinction here between "M"odern poet
and contemporary poet.

To my thinking Eliot is very much a Modern poet. So, John, which do you think
Carolyn Forche meant: modern, as in contemporary, or Modern as in Modernist
movement?

            Gabrielle Loperfido
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 19:11:45 1996
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From: [log in to unmask] (Mark Laskowski)
Subject: Re: Assignment.


>Well, for one thing, John, I'd choose a modern poet, since that was what
>Forche suggested.  We can no more consider Eliot a modern poet in 1996, than
>Eliot in his day would have considered Tennyson a modern poet.
>
>Nick

It's the uneducated minnow again.  I need you behemoths of literary studies
to help me understand why the above comment is not just semantic trickery.
Surely Eliot is firmly placed in that "era" of art/literature/history that
we consider "modern".  No?  If "modern" is to literarily be taken as what's
happening now or what has happened in a more recent recently, then
"Modernism" is a moving target, right.  But I've ready much in Utne Reader
and other trendy magazines about "post-modernism".  Does Nick (do you
Nick?) suggest that such a term is impossible?  I'm confused.

Mark Laskowski
WPSX-TV/WPSU-FM
[log in to unmask]
workphone--814.863.2606
"... The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand ..."
from The Second Coming by William Butler Yeats


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 19:17:17 1996
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From: [log in to unmask] (Mark Laskowski)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

Colleagues:
yeah, that's it.  It's the "m" vs. "M" thing.  Way to go, Gabrielle!
Whatever happened to erudition?
Kinda reminds me of the time I asked my little sister if she thought wit
was dead.  She said, "wit who?"
[log in to unmask]
>It seems to me that we need to make a distinction here between "M"odern poet
>and contemporary poet.
>
>To my thinking Eliot is very much a Modern poet. So, John, which do you think
>Carolyn Forche meant: modern, as in contemporary, or Modern as in Modernist
>movement?
>
>            Gabrielle Loperfido


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 19:32:28 1996
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From: Charles Anderson <[log in to unmask]>
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	But the question is did the teacher mean modern or contemporary 
poet? If we are talking about modernism as a movement then eliot makes 
supremem sense, but if we are speaking of contemporary then someone like 
simic or ashberry would be more appropriate.


Charles Anderson
WL cybertutor and slacker
	As nothing is more easy than to think,
	so nothing is more difficult than to think well.
					-Thomas Traherne

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 22:09:05 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 23:08:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mr. Gilgun's Assignment.
To: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
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On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Nicholas Treanor responded to John Gilgun's request 
for guidance in fulfilling an assignment that contemplated a month's 
immersion in Eliot by saying, 

> Well, for one thing, John, I'd choose a modern poet, since that was what 
> Forche suggested.  We can no more consider Eliot a modern poet in 1996, than 
> Eliot in his day would have considered Tennyson a modern poet.
> 
	Writing about Tennyson and that poet's time, (Selected Essays, "In 
Memoriam," pp. 286-295) Eliot notes:

	"Tennyson lived in a time which was already acutely time-conscious: a 
great many things seemed to be happening . . . That was a time busy 
in keeping up to date.  It had, for the most part, no hold on 
permanent things, on permanent truths about man and God and life and 
death. . . ."

	Modernity no less than almost everything in our age, the urge to
categorize notwithstanding, remains a mutable phenomenon.  To satisfy his
assignment's objective, Mr. Gilgun would be well advised to determine Ms.
Forche's notion of "modern." While Eliot may, in a reductionistically
lexicographical sense, fall beyond the pale of "modern," surely his poetic
and critical concerns and achievement remain, by and large, indisputably
trenchant to literary art and scholarship as we approach the century's
end.  Indeed, no matter what "modern" poet Mr. Gilgun may elect for his
month's concentrated reading, Eliot's probable influence is inescapable. 

	While the elements of modern, modernism, postmodernism and the
rest allow ample opportunity for academic discourse, few among us will
deny Eliot's seminal contribution to our sense of what it means to label
creative work as modern, rather than simply current. The legitimacy and
cogency of Eliot's place in our contemporary dialogue of culture is
affirmed even by the yeasty growth of this young forum.  I suggest that
today's student of literature can profit immensely by closely examining
Eliot's work, however immense and appealing the array of strictly "modern"
poets available for Mr. Gilgun's choice may be.

	And our colleague did, after all, invite our counsel not about
some hypothetical poet, but how best to make Mr. Eliot's acquaintance. 

				PWS
				Washington, DC
				6 February 1996
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb  6 22:38:48 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 23:38:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Modernism (and all that jazz)
To: Mark Laskowski <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
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On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Mark Laskowski wrote:

> Surely Eliot is firmly placed in that "era" . . . that
> we consider "modern," etc.

Oh Minnow, ease your post-postmodernist confusion (although it's as 
viable a badge of camaraderie here as any) and betake your goggles to 
the Local Library and peruse some of the spiffy guides to Your Very 
Query.  I commend

	Jewel Brooker's "Mastery and Escape: T.S.  Eliot and the Dialectic
of Modernism." Amherst: U of Mass Press, 1994, and

	Jeffrey Perl's "Skepticism and Modern Enmity: Before and After
Eliot."  Baltimore: Johns Hopkins, 1989.

	But there's enough other ponderous stuff out there on Modernism of
every hue and spot to convert you from minnowism to brobdingnagian
behemothery straightaway. And watch this trendy magazine stuff, eh?  Soon 
Hilton Kramer'll be on your case and you'll be sorry you ever said 
"modernism" out loud. 


					Paul
					Washington, D.C.
					
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 02:30:10 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 02:36:44 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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	Please tell me what the modern poets are doing with words. Please 
give the name of three modern poets and then, next to the name, tell me 
what they are doing with words. I have Postmodern American Poetry here 
edited by Paul Hoover (Norton) and I can probably find their poems in 
this text. Thanks.
					John Gilgun 

On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Booberry wrote:

> >On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:
> >
> >>       I have just returned from four weeks at the Latin America
> >> Writers' Conference in Mexico. One of my teachers, Carolyn Forche,
> >> suggested what seemed like an interesting assignment: "Read one modern
> >> poet and only one modern poet for one month."
> >>
> >>       I'd really like to do this assignment. But I need your input.
> >
> >Well, for one thing, John, I'd choose a modern poet, since that was what
> >Forche suggested.  We can no more consider Eliot a modern poet in 1996, than
> >Eliot in his day would have considered Tennyson a modern poet.
> >
> >Nick
> 
> 
> I agree with Nick.  When I first read John's post, Eliot did not come to
> mind.  I would suggest John Ashberry, Charles Simic, Amiri Baraka, Stephen
> Dobyns, or Carolyn Forche herself.  For an excellent collection of some
> other moderns, check out "From the Other Side of the Century: A New
> American Poetry 1960-1990," from Sun and Moon Press. Or check out some of
> the poets published by Black Sparrow Press.  Sometimes it's good to step
> away from Eliot for awhile.  One is amazed at what the REAL moderns are
> doing with words.
> 
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 02:33:30 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 02:40:04 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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	What did Forche mean by "modern poet?"
	she meant 20th C. poet, American. Anyone after 1912.

					--John gilgun 
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 09:04:10 1996
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 10:01:32 -0500 (EST)
From: MICHAEL COYLE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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Vis-a-vis John Gilgun's query, and Nick's response: I think Nick is absolutely
right.  We're a long way from early century modernism, and it's becoming
imperative that those of us who still love and value Eliot's writing measure
our distance from those times, equally clamoprous as our own, but clamarous in
different ways.  Thre are currently lots of scholars out there undertaking such
a task.  Ann Douglas' student David Chinitz comes to mind, but there are many
others.  Leon Surette's recent book, <The Birth of Modernism>," Peter Nicholls'
<Modernisms>, as well as recent work by Bob Perelman and Stan Smith.  If we
don't retire the notion that modernism is the telos of literary history poets
like Eliot stand to seem increasingly irrelevant to contemporary concerns.

Michael Coyle
Dept. of English, Colgate University
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 10:32:39 1996
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From: Peter Ishii <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: tse speech
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 17:27:56 +0000 (CET)
Message-Id: [log in to unmask]

Hi,

Does any one on this list know where to find recordings of TSE? I once heard
a BBC(?) recording where TSE himself declaimed parts of The Waste Land. What
I am specially searching for is a recording of The Hollow Men. Is there such
a recording? If so, where to find it? CD/MC? 
Thanks

/Peter
---------------------------------
Peter Ishii
Datautbildning/Computer Education

IHM Business School
Box 5273
S-402 25 GOTEBORG
SWEDEN
Tel. +46-31 35 20 05
Fax. +46-31 40 64 83
URL: http://www.ihm.se

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 11:43:52 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Willard Goodwin)
Subject: Re: Fiona Shaw

There's a fairly detailed account of Fiona Shaw's BBC performance of _The
Waste Land_ in the _TLS_ of 22 Dec. 1995, p. 14.

Will Goodwin, Humanities Research Center (Austin, TX)

>2. An article in the Jan. 15, 1996 _Newsweek_ says of the actress Fiona
>Shaw: "Just before Christmas she appeared on the BBC performing T. S.
>Eliot's 1922 poem "The Waste Land." It was a virtuoso feat as she switched
>personas with lightning speed, orchestrating Eliot's symphony of allusion,
>rising to a climax of anguish that made the modernist classic a perfect
>statement for the fractures of the century's end."  Did anyone see it?  Any
>idea if it might appear on American TV?
>
>Timothy Materer
>Director of Lower Division Studies
>882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
>MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
>http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 14:31:37 1996
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 12:30:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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Eliot is most definitely a "modern" poet.  He's simply not a contemporary
poet.

Tony Flinn
Eastern Washington University
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 14:43:15 1996
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From: The Standard Q <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tse speech

At 05:27 PM 2/7/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Does any one on this list know where to find recordings of TSE? I once heard
>a BBC(?) recording where TSE himself declaimed parts of The Waste Land. What
>I am specially searching for is a recording of The Hollow Men. Is there such
>a recording? If so, where to find it? CD/MC? 
>Thanks
>
>/Peter

well, microsoft Encarta has a small recording of eliot reading the first two
or three lines from Prufrock. just look up Eliot.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Madden <[log in to unmask]>
"Listening to you, I hear the music. Gazing at you, I feel the heat.
Following you, I climb the mountain; I get excitement at your feet"
						---The Who 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 14:49:34 1996
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 12:46:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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What do you mean by "after"?  Born after or writing after?

Tony Flinn
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 14:57:30 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
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Michael--Precisely because of the concerns you raise it's essential to
let Eliot, Pound, et al have "modern" and "modernism" to themselves and
not blur the terms into work written at our end of the century.

Tony Flinn
Eastern Washington University
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 15:27:27 1996
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From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tse speech
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	T.S. Eliot Reads

	Caedmon
	An Imprint of Harper Audio
	A Division of HarperCollins Publishers
	10 East 53rd St.
	NYC 10022

	ISBN 1-55994-569-9

	Price $19.00

					John Gilgun/ St Joseph MO 

On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Peter Ishii wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Does any one on this list know where to find recordings of TSE? I once heard
> a BBC(?) recording where TSE himself declaimed parts of The Waste Land. What
> I am specially searching for is a recording of The Hollow Men. Is there such
> a recording? If so, where to find it? CD/MC? 
> Thanks
> 
> /Peter
> ---------------------------------
> Peter Ishii
> Datautbildning/Computer Education
> 
> IHM Business School
> Box 5273
> S-402 25 GOTEBORG
> SWEDEN
> Tel. +46-31 35 20 05
> Fax. +46-31 40 64 83
> URL: http://www.ihm.se
> 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 16:21:13 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:31:58 +0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (W. M. Reger IV)
Subject: Modern/contemporary?

Can you define the difference, using examples from his poetry?

>Eliot is most definitely a "modern" poet.  He's simply not a contemporary
>poet.



From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 17:07:19 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:14:53 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Booberry)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

First of all, I wouldn't trust Norton when it comes to contemporary poetry.
Their analysis of older English poetry and literature is bad enough.  You
ask what are they (the moderns) doing with words.  Rather than trying to
tell you myself, I shall give you some of their own lines, and you can
decide for yourself what they are doing with words:


John Ashbery:  (from "Hotel Lautreamont)

                Now, only the willing are fated to receive death as a reward.
                Children twist hula-hoops, imagining a door to the outside.
                If we tried to leave, would being naked help us?
                And what of older, lighter concerns?  What of the river?

                (from "How Much Longer Will I Be Able to Inhabit the Divine

Sepulcher....")
                                           I'll trade
                One red sucker for two blue ones.  I'm
                Named Tom.

******

John Cage:      (from "Lecture on Nothing")

                                            What we re-quire               is
silence         ;         but what silence requires
        is       that I go on talking   .

******

Amiri Baraka:   (from "The Pause of Joe")

                So we who remain
                        who know the game
                        who have seen slavery
                        give way to the Gestapo

                        & see the slow worm
                        of fascism
                        pop out
                        Reagan headed

                        from a cancerous
                        nose


******


I don't mean to say that these are the best lines of the best contemporary
poets at the moment.  I only mean to give a hasty example of a few of the
better poets.  There are many others, such as the names I listed before.
Have fun with them.

Jason



>        Please tell me what the modern poets are doing with words. Please
>give the name of three modern poets and then, next to the name, tell me
>what they are doing with words. I have Postmodern American Poetry here
>edited by Paul Hoover (Norton) and I can probably find their poems in
>this text. Thanks.
>                                        John Gilgun


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 17:17:49 1996
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 15:16:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Wednesday, 07 Feb 1996, at 12:30:51,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

A>Eliot is most definitely a "modern" poet.  He's simply not a contemporary
A>poet.

I certainly agree, although the so-called modernists never identified
themselves as such. In fact the only literary movement with which Eliot came
close to identifying himself, at least as far as this writer is aware, is
VORTICISM. He published a piece or two in Percy Wyndham Lewis' issues of
BLAST.

Perhaps MODERNISM needs some definition. If one is confronted with
the oxymoron of having to be post-modern in order to be modern, then
something is amiss (mostly with post-modernism which is itself
a contradiction in terms).

Seems to me that part of the so-called spirit behind modernism was
the belief that the identification of any art in terms of an his-
torical timeline was an abandoned practise. As Eliot said more than
once, but first and perhaps best in "Tradition and the Individual
Talent", all times are equally present.

Too much of literary criticism is the reductionist attempt
to classify, put things in their place and congratulate one's self
for being so clever at having done it. Classification has become
a substitute for real thought.

As to the assignment, the most effective thing to do would
be to read around until one came across a poet who really rang
a lot of important bells, then look up a commentator or two
for some guidance, and go to it.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 18:15:49 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:15:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tse speech
To: Peter Ishii <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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Caedmon Cassette CDL 51403  TSE reads 4 Q
   "       "     CPN 1326   TSE reads Wasteland & Other Poems

Many large book & record stores stock these--doubtless another listmember 
can tell you where they might be available by mail.

PWS
  

On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Peter Ishii wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Does any one on this list know where to find recordings of TSE? I once heard
> a BBC(?) recording where TSE himself declaimed parts of The Waste Land. What
> I am specially searching for is a recording of The Hollow Men. Is there such
> a recording? If so, where to find it? CD/MC? 
> Thanks
> 
> /Peter
> ---------------------------------
> Peter Ishii
> Datautbildning/Computer Education
> 
> IHM Business School
> Box 5273
> S-402 25 GOTEBORG
> SWEDEN
> Tel. +46-31 35 20 05
> Fax. +46-31 40 64 83
> URL: http://www.ihm.se
> 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 18:20:23 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:20:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Daytime Walk Rant <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: tse speech
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Go to

http://town.hall.org/Archives/radio/IMS/HarperAudio/011894_harp_ITH.html

They have Eliot reading the entire Waste Land in available in RealAudio, 
u-law, and whatever .gsm is.

-------------------------------------
Danny Wyatt
[log in to unmask]
http://www.columbia.edu/~dmw22
Come forth, Lazarus!  And he came fifth and lost the job.


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 18:30:25 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:35:57 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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	Writing and publishing after 1912. 

On Wed, 7 Feb 1996 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> What do you mean by "after"?  Born after or writing after?
> 
> Tony Flinn
> 
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 18:33:44 1996
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Subject: Re: tse speech
X-Mailer: <Windows Eudora Version 2.0.2>

Hello Peter,

     Most any large record store which has a Spoken Word Section should
carry the cassettes.  I have recordings of The Waste Land, The Four
Quartets, Coriolanus, The Hollow Men, Prufrock, and many of his other poems.
They are put out by HarperCollins Publishers, Inc., 10 East 53rd Street, New
York, NY 10022.  They might be able to tell you where to purchase them.

Jackie


>Hi,
>
>Does any one on this list know where to find recordings of TSE? I once heard
>a BBC(?) recording where TSE himself declaimed parts of The Waste Land. What
>I am specially searching for is a recording of The Hollow Men. Is there such
>a recording? If so, where to find it? CD/MC? 
>Thanks
>
>/Peter
>---------------------------------
>Peter Ishii
>Datautbildning/Computer Education
>
>IHM Business School
>Box 5273
>S-402 25 GOTEBORG
>SWEDEN
>Tel. +46-31 35 20 05
>Fax. +46-31 40 64 83
>URL: http://www.ihm.se
>
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 18:36:31 1996
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Subject: Re: Assignment.
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>	What did Forche mean by "modern poet?"
>	she meant 20th C. poet, American. Anyone after 1912.
>
>					--John gilgun 
>Interesting = Because I've seen Eliot's name listed under both: American
and/or English Poets.

-Jackie-

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 18:43:36 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:42:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Leon Surette <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: MICHAEL COYLE <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: [log in to unmask]
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Thanks for the plug, Michael.

Leon Surette			Email: [log in to unmask]
Department of English           Fax: 519-661-3776
The University of Western Ontario
London, Ontario
N6A 3K7

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 18:52:16 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:58:52 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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	But the exercise has nothing to do with when the poet was born or 
began to publish or whether he can be called "modern" or "postmodern." 
The exercise is about contemplation, concentration, etc. I'm on 
sabbatical and I'd really like to immerse myself in the work of one poet 
for a month. I did this in graduate school with the minor Anglo Saxon 
poems and with Beowulf. I memorized both the shorter poems and the longer 
poem. It is this kind of total immersion that makes the exercise 
meaningful. I can see doing it with Homer or the Egyptian Book of the 
Dead. 
	So far I have failed to immerse myself in the works of Auden, of 
Stevens, of Olson. I lack the ability to concentrate right now. But I can 
see spending a month or more on Eliot. It would be transformational, 
transcendent.

	"It is interesting to note that in ancient Judea, where kalleh 
meant 'months of study,' scholars would withdraw from the world for a
'kalleh month'--i.e., a month in which they would 'remarry the Torah."

				--The Joys of Yiddish by Leo Rosten, p. 165.

	It would be worthwhile to "remarry" the works of Eliot. I'll work 
on it.

						--John Gilgun 


On Wed, 7 Feb 1996 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> What do you mean by "after"?  Born after or writing after?
> 
> Tony Flinn
> 
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 20:04:21 1996
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From: [log in to unmask] (tosca)
Subject: Robert Frost
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Help!  I know Mr. Frost is not our "main man" but might anyone tell me if
there is a list devoted to him?

Thank you.

Jacqueline

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 20:49:46 1996
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From: Robert Gutman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      digest
To: [log in to unmask]

Is there a digest for this list?  Sonya Rudikoff [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb  7 22:54:51 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Russ MacKechnie <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: tse speech

At 03:34 PM 2/7/96 -0600, John Gilgun wrote:

>	T.S. Eliot Reads
>
>	Caedmon
>	An Imprint of Harper Audio
>	A Division of HarperCollins Publishers
>	10 East 53rd St.
>	NYC 10022
>
>	ISBN 1-55994-569-9
>
>	Price $19.00
>
>					John Gilgun/ St Joseph MO 
>
>On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Peter Ishii wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Does any one on this list know where to find recordings of TSE? I once heard
>> a BBC(?) recording where TSE himself declaimed parts of The Waste Land. What
>> I am specially searching for is a recording of The Hollow Men. Is there such
>> a recording? If so, where to find it? CD/MC? 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> /Peter
>> ---------------------------------
>> Peter Ishii
>> Datautbildning/Computer Education
>
        There are at least three Caedmon tapes of Eliot reading his work.
The one containing _The Hollow Men_ (Mr. Ishii's specific request) is _The
Waste Land and Other Poems read by T.S. Eliot_, Caedmon CDL 51326; the other
two Caedmon recordings in my possession are _T.S. Eliot Reading Poems and
Choruses_, Caedmon CDL 51045 and _Four Quartets Read by T.S. Eliot_, Caedmon
CDL 51403. The Musical Heritage Society also offers two recordings of
interest: _Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats Read by T.S. Eliot_, MHC
9090M, and a truly wonderful double-cassette recording  entitled _Sir Alec
Guinness Reads T.S. Eliot_, MHC 229139X. The latter contains marvellous
renditions of The Waste Land and Four Quartets, among others---highly
recommended.

        If anyone would like a detailed breakdown of the contents of these
cassette tapes, feel free to let me know via e-mail.


	All the best,

	                 --   Russ   --


From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 00:48:54 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 01:47:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Swets <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Modern/contemporary?
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, W. M. Reger IV wrote:

> Can you define the difference, using examples from his poetry?
> 
> >Eliot is most definitely a "modern" poet.  He's simply not a contemporary
> >poet.
 
Darn. He used to be.

*******************************************************************************
                                 __  __
COLOR ME ORANGE                  | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582; Fax: 954-782-4535
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From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 05:36:21 1996
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From: andrew burns <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: post-modernism and objective correlative

could someone please inform me the position that post-modernists take 
with regards to the objective correlative and why this position has been taken?

it seems to me that the present trend is to deny any objectivity, but this
could be quite a way off the mark.

i would appreciate some comments on this matter, 

thanks, 

AB.

From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 06:09:41 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 06:16:18 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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	An excellent definition of "modernism" can be found in Modernist 
Quartet by Frank Lentricchia (Cambridge University Press, 1994.)
	Also: The Pound Era by Hugh Kenner.

	I got a call from a Mr. Collins last night accepting me into a 
creative writing seminar which will meet this summer in Galway. We are to 
visit places which were important to Yeats. So it occurred to me that I 
should spend a month reading the poetry and plays of Yeats.

			--John gilgun/St Joseph MO. 

On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> On Wednesday, 07 Feb 1996, at 12:30:51,
> thus spake [log in to unmask]:
> 
> A>Eliot is most definitely a "modern" poet.  He's simply not a contemporary
> A>poet.
> 
> I certainly agree, although the so-called modernists never identified
> themselves as such. In fact the only literary movement with which Eliot came
> close to identifying himself, at least as far as this writer is aware, is
> VORTICISM. He published a piece or two in Percy Wyndham Lewis' issues of
> BLAST.
> 
> Perhaps MODERNISM needs some definition. If one is confronted with
> the oxymoron of having to be post-modern in order to be modern, then
> something is amiss (mostly with post-modernism which is itself
> a contradiction in terms).
> 
> Seems to me that part of the so-called spirit behind modernism was
> the belief that the identification of any art in terms of an his-
> torical timeline was an abandoned practise. As Eliot said more than
> once, but first and perhaps best in "Tradition and the Individual
> Talent", all times are equally present.
> 
> Too much of literary criticism is the reductionist attempt
> to classify, put things in their place and congratulate one's self
> for being so clever at having done it. Classification has become
> a substitute for real thought.
> 
> As to the assignment, the most effective thing to do would
> be to read around until one came across a poet who really rang
> a lot of important bells, then look up a commentator or two
> for some guidance, and go to it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> *************************************************************
> *  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
> *            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
> *************************************************************
> 
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 06:16:06 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 06:22:43 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Modern/contemporary?
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	One thing which makes him "modern" is his use of the collage 
technique in The Wasteland.
	We could make a game of this. Would each person on the List add 
one other thing which makes Eliot a Modernist poet? 
							--John Gilgun 

On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, W. M. Reger IV wrote:

> Can you define the difference, using examples from his poetry?
> 
> >Eliot is most definitely a "modern" poet.  He's simply not a contemporary
> >poet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 09:47:45 1996
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From: "Peter Quigley" <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re[2]: Modernism (and all that jazz)


where can i find the ms. where tse parodied Emerson "I am the resurrection anf 
the life...the fire and the butter knife" etc?
also where does he ridicule, Bergson, Shaw, and other life force types?

From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 11:41:45 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:49:35 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

John Gilgun:  You have memorized all of Beowulf?  Is that the type of thing
I'm going to be doing in grad school for literature?  It sounds like a
tremendous task.  Have you read "Grendel" by an author whose name I forget?

Jason Tarricone


From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 12:17:57 1996
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From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:17:36 -0600
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Reply-to: Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>
Priority: normal
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> Is there a digest for this list?  Sonya Rudikoff [log in to unmask]
> 
To receive listmail in digest form, send the one-line command

SET TSE MAIL DIGEST

to [log in to unmask], leaving the Subject line blank.  I'll add 
notice of this option to the next version of the FAQ.

Regards,

Greg Foster

******************************************************************************
"That my mind became developed through my pursuits during the voyage [of the
_Beagle_], is rendered probable by a remark made by my father, who was the
most acute observer whom I ever saw, . . . for on first seeing me after the
voyage, he turned round to my sisters and exclaimed, 'Why, the shape of his
head is quite altered.'" --Darwin
******************************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 13:18:46 1996
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From: IDALGLEISH <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Thu, 8 Feb 1996 19:16:52 GMT
Subject:       The Moot
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Does anyone know anything about Eliot's involvement with the group known 
as 'The Moot' in the forties in England? Where can I find out more about 
the group, its activities, membership, degree of influence etc. If 
anybody has any information I'd be grateful.

Thanks,

Ian Dalgleish.

From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 13:47:02 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:37:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:

> 	What did Forche mean by "modern poet?"
> 	she meant 20th C. poet, American. Anyone after 1912.

>From ntreanor@freenet Thu Feb  8 14:26:20 1996
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 09:30:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Nicholas Treanor <ntreanor@freenet>
To: Nicholas Treanor <ntreanor@freenet>
Subject: Re: Assignment.

On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:

> 	What did Forche mean by "modern poet?"
> 	she meant 20th C. poet, American. Anyone after 1912.

John, did Forche say "a 20th C poet, American, anyone after 1912" and
you translated that as "modern" in your original post to the TSE
list?  Or did she say "modern" and you or another student asked her what 
she meant by that, and she told you but you neglected to pass that on to 
us in your original post?  Or did she say "modern" and you're guessing 
that she meant "20th C...American...after 1912"?

Nick  (feeling sucked in).



























From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 14:22:40 1996
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On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Peter Ishii wrote:

> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 17:27:56 +0000 (CET)
> From: Peter Ishii <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: tse speech
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Does any one on this list know where to find recordings of TSE? I once heard
> a BBC(?) recording where TSE himself declaimed parts of The Waste Land. What
> I am specially searching for is a recording of The Hollow Men. Is there such
> a recording? If so, where to find it? CD/MC? 
> Thanks
> 
> /Peter
> ---------------------------------
> Peter Ishii
> Datautbildning/Computer Education
> 
> IHM Business School
> Box 5273
> S-402 25 GOTEBORG
> SWEDEN
> Tel. +46-31 35 20 05
> Fax. +46-31 40 64 83
> URL: http://www.ihm.se
> 
> 
Try any bookstore.  I have seen them at Barnes an Noble or really 
anywhere.  Now in Sweden I have no idea where to get them.
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 15:23:43 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:23:10 -0500
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.

In a message dated 96-02-08 01:47:04 EST, you write:

>	It would be worthwhile to "remarry" the works of Eliot. I'll work 
>on it.
>
>						--John Gilgun 

Well...I've been lurking around this discussion for awhile with great
amusement at the all the semiotic wrestling matches over modern vs.
post-modern vs. contemporary, and the slugfests, reminiscent of a smokefilled
Superdome growling with enormous car-crushing monster trucks. After all,
compared to Homer, Milton is most modern. 

I think, John, you found your own answer right where it was all along, in
your own heart. Yes....remarry the works of Eliot. Don't worry about format
or scholarly approaches. Just open your heart to the poetry and dive in,
anywhere...and rather than follow the counsel of scholars, or artists such as
myself....follow the guidance of your heart and go where it leads you.

Now just between you and me, a quest into the works of Charles Bukowski would
ALSO yield great rewards....but that's just my rascally two cents worth.

---Michael Parker Smith
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 15:24:44 1996
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    8 Feb 96 14:21:39 MST7MDT
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From: "Barbara Laman" <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Thu, 8 Feb 1996 14:21:06 MDT
Subject:       RCPT: The Moot
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Confirmation of reading: your message -

    Date:     8 Feb 96 19:16
    To:      [log in to unmask]
    Subject: The Moot

Was read at 14:21, 8 Feb 96.





From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 15:34:55 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 16:42:40 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

>
>        I got a call from a Mr. Collins last night accepting me into a
>creative writing seminar which will meet this summer in Galway. We are to
>visit places which were important to Yeats. So it occurred to me that I
>should spend a month reading the poetry and plays of Yeats.
>
>                        --John gilgun/St Joseph MO.
>



****So all this bantering about what is modern and contemporary and
post-modern and ante-modern and anti-modern, all this nonsense is for
naught.  Oh well.  Yeats, too, is an incredible poet, and he falls within
Forche's guidelines.  I think we should learn from this that everyone has
his own way of classifying poetry and poets, and the classification is not
what's important.  What's important are the words, the sounds, the
meanings.  Let's concentrate on that.

[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 15:57:35 1996
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From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: William Stafford Testimonial.
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	Half of the current issue of ELF: Eclectic Literary Forum is 
devoted to testimonials to the poet William Stafford, tributes to his 
poetry, his teaching and his loving spirit. Anyone who knew him, studied 
with me, talked with him experienced this spirit. Anyway, ELF's address 
is PO Box 392, Tonawanda NY 14150. The editor is C.K. Erbes. The price of 
the magazine is $5.00. 

				--John Gilgun 
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 16:22:20 1996
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Subject: modernism label/assignment
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Peter I would like to buy you a drink for your insight on the problem with 
labeling. For the assignment in question I would say that one should take 
just one of Eliot's works and focus on that. I would suggest The Waste Land 
but the reader must be familiar or become familiar with the the collage (as 
someone so correctly mentioned) of thoughts that Eliot plays with. 
Personally I found the Fire Sermon to be hilarious yet damn interesting! I 
would like to hear if anyone else found Tiresias in The Fire Sermon to be 
comical.?

From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 17:13:48 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:11:48 +0000
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Philip Hobsbaum in "Tradition &Experiment in English Poetry" concludes 
that TSE is first and foremeost an American poet and as far as the 
Anglican tradition is concerned is a destructive cuckoo.  

Hobsbaum traces massive influences by Whitman on TSE.  I believe that 
there are equally massive influences by Poe on TSE.  TSE discussed, as Greg 
Foster kindly pointed ou to me, the influence of Poe on the French 
modernists whilst distancing himself from Poe personally.  

Is TSE really an American or an English poet ? 
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 17:14:31 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:11:48 +0000
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Perhaps more importantly can anyone please identify a true 
post-modern poet?

Eliot specifically identifies himself with Pound and Joyce, the 
great modernists,  in his introduction to David Jones's "In 
Parenthesis".

As for the definition of modernism isn't this post-enlightenmentism ? 
All of Eliot's verse therefore qualifies because he constantly flies 
from the enlightenment personality.
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 18:48:01 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 19:49:44 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Mark Laskowski)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

oooooh!  I know that one, I know that one.  Score double jeopardy for the
uneducated minnow, state your response as a question:  Who is John Gardner?
Author of "Grendel" and "The Art of Writing Fiction" or some such title.
What do I win, Alex?  Bobby?


>John Gilgun:  You have memorized all of Beowulf?  Is that the type of thing
>I'm going to be doing in grad school for literature?  It sounds like a
>tremendous task.  Have you read "Grendel" by an author whose name I forget?
>
>Jason Tarricone

**************************
 Mark Laskowski
 Penn State Public Broadcasting
 [log in to unmask]
 (814) 863-2606
**************************
IT'S NOBODY'S FAULT.
IT'S EVERYBODY'S PROBLEM.
AND WE CAN SOLVE IT ONLY
BY WORKING TOGETHER.


From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 18:52:44 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 19:54:54 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Mark Laskowski)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

gang:

is Forche available by email?  In our pursuit of the truth, we've never
thought to simply ask.

[log in to unmask]

>On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:
>
>>       What did Forche mean by "modern poet?"
>>       she meant 20th C. poet, American. Anyone after 1912.
>
>>From ntreanor@freenet Thu Feb  8 14:26:20 1996
>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 09:30:04 -0500 (EST)
>From: Nicholas Treanor <ntreanor@freenet>
>To: Nicholas Treanor <ntreanor@freenet>
>Subject: Re: Assignment.
>
>On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:
>
>>       What did Forche mean by "modern poet?"
>>       she meant 20th C. poet, American. Anyone after 1912.
>
>John, did Forche say "a 20th C poet, American, anyone after 1912" and
>you translated that as "modern" in your original post to the TSE
>list?  Or did she say "modern" and you or another student asked her what
>she meant by that, and she told you but you neglected to pass that on to
>us in your original post?  Or did she say "modern" and you're guessing
>that she meant "20th C...American...after 1912"?
>
>Nick  (feeling sucked in).


From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 19:46:16 1996
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Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 20:44:05 -0500 (EST)
From: MICHAEL COYLE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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"Grendel" is by John Gardner.
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 20:42:09 1996
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Date:        Thu, 08 Feb 1996 20:42:40 CST
From: "Edwards, Martha" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: D. Davie on TSE
X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V4.1.0
In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Mon, 05 Feb 1996 15:55:14 CST

In working on an essay on Pound's prosody, I came across the following
comment by Donald Davie: ". . . Eliot had no ear for verse that was
truly 'free' but only for verse that departed--boldly sometimes, timidly
sometimes--from a standard meter like the Jacobean pentameter" (_Ezra
Pound_ [Chicago, U of Chicago P, 1975] 89).

It seems to me that Davie is mistaking TSE's frequent desire to employ
variations of more-traditional meters (either _for_ their effects or to
ironize those effects) with an inability to move beyond them, which he
(TSE) does even more frequently.  It's noteworthy that using traditional
meters, as Davie notes, is consistent w/ EP and TSE's agenda (which
argued that one shld. only use non-traditional meters when the emotion
to be expressed cannot be expressed by those meters).

Just thought I'd bring this up and see what you (all) think.


Barry (not Martha) Edwards
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 22:13:45 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:13:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grendel
To: Count Chocula <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
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Grendel.  John Gardner.  New York: Alfred Knopf, 1971.  Illustrated by 
Emil Antonucci.

On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Count Chocula wrote:

> John Gilgun:  You have memorized all of Beowulf?  Is that the type of thing
> I'm going to be doing in grad school for literature?  It sounds like a
> tremendous task.  Have you read "Grendel" by an author whose name I forget?
> 
> Jason Tarricone
> 
> 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 22:28:13 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:27:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "feeling sucked in"
To: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
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On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Nicholas Treanor wrote, about the casually protracted 
Gilgun assignment brouhaha:

> Nick  (feeling sucked in).

Nick:  Concur; trivializing carelessness, well beyond "necessary and 
sufficient."

		PWS
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 22:37:47 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:37:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Moot
To: IDALGLEISH <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, IDALGLEISH wrote:

> Does anyone know anything about Eliot's involvement with the group known 
> as 'The Moot' in the forties in England? Where can I find out more about 
> the group, its activities, membership, degree of influence etc. If 
> anybody has any information I'd be grateful.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ian Dalgleish.
> 
> 
Ian:

	Peter Ackroyd's TSE bio (TSE: A Life.  NY: Simon & Schuster, 
1984) provides some background, pp. 243, 253, 256, 257.

				PWS
				Washington, DC
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 22:42:06 1996
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 08 Feb 1996 20:41:26 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 20:41:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Modernism (and all that jazz)
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 08:45:56,
thus spake Peter Quigley:

PQ>where can i find the ms. where tse parodied Emerson "I am the resurrection anf 
PQ>the life...the fire and the butter knife" etc?
PQ>also where does he ridicule, Bergson, Shaw, and other life force types?

I vaguely remember seeing it in the rare book Library at Harvard,
which also had Biennes Noctes. :)

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb  8 23:05:54 1996
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Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 21:05:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 12:49:35,
thus spake Count Chocula:

CC>John Gilgun:  You have memorized all of Beowulf?  Is that the type of thing
CC>I'm going to be doing in grad school for literature?  It sounds like a
CC>tremendous task.  Have you read "Grendel" by an author whose name I forget?

It is in fact possible to memorize the entire A/S vocabulary. It
ain't big 'tall.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 00:33:56 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Russ MacKechnie <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Modern/contemporary?

At 06:22 AM 2/8/96 -0600, John Gilgun wrote:

>	One thing which makes him "modern" is his use of the collage 
>technique in The Wasteland.
>	We could make a game of this. Would each person on the List add 
>one other thing which makes Eliot a Modernist poet? 
>							--John Gilgun 
>
        The young man carbuncular and his captivating conquest get my vote.
Not to mention Apeneck Sweeney and his crew. . . .

              -- Russ MacKechnie  --

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 00:38:44 1996
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 01:46:36 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: Michael Parker Smith


>Now just between you and me, a quest into the works of Charles Bukowski would
>ALSO yield great rewards....but that's just my rascally two cents worth.
>
>---Michael Parker Smith



You and I are probably the only two people whose favorite poets are
Bukowski and Eliot, if indeed this is true for you.  They make such strange
bedfellows.

Jason Tarricone


From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 00:48:53 1996
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 01:56:42 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

>On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 12:49:35,
>thus spake Count Chocula:
>
>CC>John Gilgun:  You have memorized all of Beowulf?  Is that the type of thing
>CC>I'm going to be doing in grad school for literature?  It sounds like a
>CC>tremendous task.  Have you read "Grendel" by an author whose name I forget?
>
>It is in fact possible to memorize the entire A/S vocabulary. It
>ain't big 'tall.
>
>Cheers,
>Peter



Let's see:  meadhall, whaleroad (ocean). well, that's all I can remember.
I prefer memorizing Prufrock or What the Thunder Said.


From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 01:25:03 1996
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From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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	I don't think graduate students in English have to do it any more 
but at the University of Iowa around 1970 (when i got the Ph.D) one had 
to take one semester of the shorter Anglo Saxon poems, one semester of 
Beowulf and one semester of English literature from the 12th through the 
15th Century. It was not difficult to memorize the Anglo Saxon poems once 
I understood the devices the bards used to memorize them (alliteration, 
the number of beats on each side of the ceasura, the mnemomic devices.) 
The poems are formulaic. Phrases are repeated again and again. Memorizing 
these poems was a wonderful experience because it took total 
concentration and memorizing "removed me from the world." I felt no pain 
when I was immersed in memorizing these poems. I was removed from the 
world. It was like a religious experience. Total discipline, total 
immersion, a total head trip. It was the greatest experience of reading 
poetry that I have ever had. In 1992 in Aspen my teacher Ed Hirsch asked 
us to memorize a poem. I chose Auden's "As I Walked Out One Evening." I 
had a similar experience with this. People lost a LOT when they stopped 
needing to memorize poetry. Nothing equals that experience. 
					--John Gilgun 
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 03:00:09 1996
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 00:59:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Modern/contemporary?
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 23:11:48,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>Perhaps more importantly can anyone please identify a true 
JC>post-modern poet?
JC>
JC>Eliot specifically identifies himself with Pound and Joyce, the 
JC>great modernists,  in his introduction to David Jones's "In 
JC>Parenthesis".

Indeed, E. held great sympathy for Pound, Joyce and Yeats, although
he rather beat Pound to a pulp in AFTER STRANGE GODS, and also in
a raging correspondence they had in The New English Weekly. But did
he identify with them precisely AS modernists? In fact did they
identify themselves as modernists? Seems to me, the only movements
Pound committed himself to were Bel Esprit and Social Credit. (We won't
mention Fascism, for that might implicate him with the Futurists.) He
wouldn't even lend his name to direct involvement in imagism.
Then there's Eliot's own identification of himself as Royalist,
Anglo-Cathlic and Classicist. Does that make him modern? I suppose
Prince Chuck and Di might think so.


JC>As for the definition of modernism isn't this post-enlightenmentism ? 
JC>All of Eliot's verse therefore qualifies because he constantly flies 
JC>from the enlightenment personality.
Oh how the mighty are fallen (as Guinan says to Q when the latter is set
upon while helpless, by a species formerly his victim). We define one
category by means of another. Chinese boxes! Mistuh Kurtz -- he ain't
half dead compared to us.

Did you know that when a Catholic priest is ordained, he has to take
an oath against modernism? (At least he used to. I'm a bit out of
touch.)

BTW, anybody listened to an album by the Crash Test Dummies called:
GOD SHUFFLED HIS FEET? Has a song called "Afternoons and Coffespoons":

"I've watched the summer evenings pass by
 I've heard the rattle in my bronchi..."

May not be post-modern, but at least its antediluvian.

  The Auditory Imagination:
  =========================
  the feeling for syllable and rhythm penetrating far below the conscious
  levels of thought and feeling, invigorating every word; sinking to the
  most primitive and forgotten, returning to the origin and bringinging some-
  thing back, seeking the beginning and the end.It works through meanings,
  certainly, or not without meanings in the ordinary sense, and fuses the
  old and obliterated and the trite, the current, and the new and surpris-
  ing, the most ancient and the most civilized mentality. (118)
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Eliot,T.S. "Matthew Arnold." THE USE OF POETRY AND THE USE OF
      CRITICISM. London: Faber, 1933.

Now would that be pre-postmodernism, or post-premodernism, I wonder?
Perhaps it's post-pre-pearlmanism, or knit-one-pearl-two-postmanism.
Or plain old Piltdown-man-ism. All a bunch of phonies if you ask me.

Then there's "the virgin's prayer": Ezra Pound and Ausutus John,
				    Bless the bed that I lie on.

'Twas a tale told by an Eliot, full of Pound and theory....

Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 06:57:50 1996
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:54:52 +0900 (KST)
From: Joon-Soo Bong <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Eliot's Parody of Emerson
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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"I am the Ressurection and the Life" can be found in Valerie Eliot's
facsimile edition of _The Waste Land_ (New York: Harcourt, 1971).
The Berg Collection of the New York Public Library has the holograph
ms. along with other Waste Land manuscripts.

Regards,
Joon Bong
--------------------------
[log in to unmask]


On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 08:45:56,
> thus spake Peter Quigley:
> 
> PQ>where can i find the ms. where tse parodied Emerson "I am the resurrection anf 
> PQ>the life...the fire and the butter knife" etc?
> PQ>also where does he ridicule, Bergson, Shaw, and other life force types?
> 
> I vaguely remember seeing it in the rare book Library at Harvard,
> which also had Biennes Noctes. :)
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> *************************************************************
> *  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
> *            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
> *************************************************************
> 
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 07:52:06 1996
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From: IDALGLEISH <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Fri, 9 Feb 1996 13:50:03 GMT
Subject:       RCPT: The Moot
Priority: normal
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Confirmation of reading: your message -

    Date:     8 Feb 96 19:16
    To:       [log in to unmask]
    Subject:  The Moot

Was read at 13:50, 9 Feb 1996.



From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 08:14:28 1996
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From: Bob Canary <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The Moot
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On Eliot and the Moot, try Robert Kojecky, TS Eliot's Social Criticism 
(London, Faber, 1971)

On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, IDALGLEISH wrote:

> Does anyone know anything about Eliot's involvement with the group known 
> as 'The Moot' in the forties in England? Where can I find out more about 
> the group, its activities, membership, degree of influence etc. If 
> anybody has any information I'd be grateful.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ian Dalgleish.
> 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 08:55:42 1996
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From: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Jason, as Count Chocula, wrote:

> Oh well.  Yeats, too, is an incredible poet, and he falls within
> Forche's guidelines.  

God! first they appropriate Eliot, now Yeats.  Who will the Americans
claim next?

Nick  :)











From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 09:41:11 1996
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:38:38 -0500 (EST)
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Subject: Re: Assignment.

If you're going to Ireland, you should spend some time reading Eavan Boland--
I spent almost a month on her last spring before she read here at Wofford and
was knocked down by the power of her work.

      --Mary Margaret Richards
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 10:23:29 1996
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From: "Barbara Laman" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date:          Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:20:20 MDT
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Sorry to bother the list with this.  I have misplaced my 
original instructions.  Need to unsubscribe for a while.  Thanks 
for any help.
Barbara Laman
 





From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 10:26:14 1996
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Unsuscribe.
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 13:19:49 1996
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 11:23:34 +0000
To: [log in to unmask]
From: Christine <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Michael Parker Smith

At 01:46 AM 2/9/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Now just between you and me, a quest into the works of Charles Bukowski would
>>ALSO yield great rewards....but that's just my rascally two cents worth.
>>
>>---Michael Parker Smith
>
>
>
>You and I are probably the only two people whose favorite poets are
>Bukowski and Eliot, if indeed this is true for you.  They make such strange
>bedfellows.
>

No, I know of at least one other. However, given a fit of contemporary
interest, I'd much rather read Four Quartets hidden within anything by 
Robert Kelly than within, say, _War All the Time_.  B and E are really 
not such strange bedfellows.  Both spit at the human predicament. 
Bukowski just spits on the sidewalk.  

Best,

Christine Norstrand

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 14:23:56 1996
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 13:58:46 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Gabriel Jones)
Subject: Re: Assignment.


>God! first they appropriate Eliot, now Yeats.  Who will the Americans
>claim next?
>

Joseph Brodsky, very likely.

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 14:37:29 1996
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From: "Peter Quigley" <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 43 Text
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Eliot's Parody of Emerson

thank you so much

_______________________________________________________________________________

Subject: Eliot's Parody of Emerson

From:    [log in to unmask] at Internet-Mail

Date:    2/9/96  11:24 AM



"I am the Ressurection and the Life" can be found in Valerie Eliot's
facsimile edition of _The Waste Land_ (New York: Harcourt, 1971).
The Berg Collection of the New York Public Library has the holograph
ms. along with other Waste Land manuscripts.

Regards,
Joon Bong
--------------------------
[log in to unmask]


On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 08:45:56,
> thus spake Peter Quigley:
> 
> PQ>where can i find the ms. where tse parodied Emerson "I am the resurrection
anf 
> PQ>the life...the fire and the butter knife" etc?
> PQ>also where does he ridicule, Bergson, Shaw, and other life force types?
> 
> I vaguely remember seeing it in the rare book Library at Harvard,
> which also had Biennes Noctes. :)
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> *************************************************************
> *  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
> *            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
> *************************************************************
> 

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 15:20:57 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:18:57 +0000
Subject: Modernism etc
Reply-to: [log in to unmask]
Priority: normal
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Modernism fits in as follows:

1. Early Christian apocalyptic
2. Early church hellenistic
3. Medieval Roman Catholic
4. Reformation Protestant
5. Enlightenment / Modern
6. Post Modern

(See Hans Kung "Church and Challenge" only available in Ireland I 
understand.)
 
Each cultural sea change is both a reaction against the previous 
orthodoxy, hence modernism = "post enlightenmentism", and itself the 
precursor of its own reaction, hence ""post"-modernism".

The question I raise again is who is a post-modern poet?  I would 
really like to know.

As for Poe can I refer to "Wrinkles in Time" by George Smoot 
published by Little Brown & Co 1993 pages 28-30 where Poe is credited 
with the true explanation of "Olbers's Paradox", which is infinitely, excuse 
the pun, more interesting than that of the Cretan Liar.  Poe is 
credited by Smoot with the intuitive discovery, as opposed to the revelation, 
that the universe had a beginning.  This may be one of the reasons 
why the French found Poe so discipleworthy.  TSE's essay on Poe to 
Valery doesn't really do the job.  I would really like to know about 
TSE's real relationship to Poe.  Was it horribly sublimated in the 
horror of TSE's verse as the horrors of his first marriage were?  Is 
the flight from peronality a flight from Viv and Edgar?  I would 
really like to know.
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 15:34:49 1996
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 09 Feb 1996 13:32:03 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 13:32:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: modernism label/assignment
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 16:21:52,
thus spake Jonathan F. Brown:

JB>Peter I would like to buy you a drink for your insight on the problem with 
JB>labeling.
All compliments are welcome. I'm glad I'm not the only person who
sees things that way. I've received a number of affirmative notes off-list
from various lurkers -- who on this list, I guess, must be called POSSUMS! :))

JB>For the assignment in question I would say that one should take 
JB>just one of Eliot's works and focus on that. I would suggest The Waste Land
JB>but the reader must be familiar or become familiar with the the collage (as
JB>someone so correctly mentioned) of thoughts that Eliot plays with.
That is ever so correct. I did my MA on TWL a few millennia ago, and there
is for me no question that to srtudy TWL is to study ALL of western,
and a good deal of vedantic literature. It is in fact a perfect laboratory
demonstration of everything about time that E. mentions in Tradition
and the Individual Talent.

JB>Personally I found the Fire Sermon to be hilarious yet damn interesting! I 
JB>would like to hear if anyone else found Tiresias in The Fire Sermon to be 
JB>comical.?
Of course. While people are often fond of noting that the Notes of TWL
are a finger up at E.'s critics of Prufrock, not so many are willing
to look at the humourous dimensions of the work itself (ding dong an sich).
The Notes are a guide to that humour. Don't forget that E. had just
finished doing an exhaustive (complete and thorough to the nth degree)
study of late 16th, early 17th Century literature, which is loaded to
the gills with ALL the humours.

The original Tiresias story, in itself, envvitably evokes guffaws
from students when they hear it, so how could it not be boated
with irony in the current context.

E.'s note, btw, about the personages blending together, (as
in a deck of cards -- Tarot &c) is a constant but subtle theme in
his work, to do with a dispute over the substantial unity of
the human soul. McLuhan put me onto this in a class once.
Cf. "Preludes" -- "the 1000 sordid images of which you soul is
		   cornstituted."
or the lines from 4Q which I don't have handy, but start
with "Dark, dark, dark, they all go into the dark &c ...
      Nobody's funeral, for there is no one to bury."

Yikes!

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 15:37:46 1996
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 13:36:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 23:11:48,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>Philip Hobsbaum in "Tradition &Experiment in English Poetry" concludes 
JC>that TSE is first and foremeost an American poet and as far as the 
JC>Anglican tradition is concerned is a destructive cuckoo.  
JC>
JC>Hobsbaum traces massive influences by Whitman on TSE.  I believe that 
JC>there are equally massive influences by Poe on TSE.  TSE discussed, as Greg 
JC>Foster kindly pointed ou to me, the influence of Poe on the French 
JC>modernists whilst distancing himself from Poe personally.  

What most ppeople miss when they get on this merry-go-round is that
ELiot was massively influenced by everybody. It therefore follows
they nobody bothers to discuss how E. masssively influenced all
those who influenced him. It is impossible to look at the symbolists
except through an Eliot filter. Poe as well. Btw, if you want the
symbolist influence with or w/o Poe, you Arthur Symon's book. It
was the vehicle.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 15:43:39 1996
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 09 Feb 1996 13:42:14 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 13:42:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 23:11:48,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>Is TSE really an American or an English poet ? 

Ooops I forgot to speak to this one. Of course E. was
an English poet, as are ALL U.S poets (we can't say
American, because the poets of Latin America are definitely
not English). Any poet who writes in English is an English
poet. Whether or not E. buggered English poetry is moot.
He certainly changed it. No question. Whether other USian
poets have buggered English poetry isn't so hard to figure
out. Outside of Pound and maybe one or two others,  none
have done much to change it.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 16:04:12 1996
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 14:07:55 +0000
To: [log in to unmask]
From: Christine <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.

At 09:59 AM 2/9/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Jason, as Count Chocula, wrote:
>
>> Oh well.  Yeats, too, is an incredible poet, and he falls within
>> Forche's guidelines.  
>
>God! first they appropriate Eliot, now Yeats.  Who will the Americans
>claim next?
>
>Nick  :)
>

What's your problem?  We left you Tennyson and we'll send you 
Shel as the next poet laureate.  


From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 16:18:08 1996
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 09 Feb 1996 14:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 14:16:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 01:56:42,
thus spake Count Chocula:

>PM>It is in fact possible to memorize the entire A/S vocabulary. It
>PM>ain't big 'tall.
>PM>Cheers,
>PM>Peter

CC>Let's see:  meadhall, whaleroad (ocean). well, that's all I can remember.
CC>I prefer memorizing Prufrock or What the Thunder Said.

I did say POSSIBLE, not desireable, although I'd love to do it again
if I had the chance. I wonder if meathead (cannibal food)
might be in there somewhere?

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 16:23:28 1996
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 id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Fri,
 09 Feb 1996 14:22:13 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 14:22:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: unsuscribe
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 08:26:17,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

A>Unsuscribe.

I think if people play the game, they should learn the rules.
On my list, anyone who does this just goes onto the IGNORED
list, and so continues to receive posts, but can't send any.
They are in limbo until they unsubscribe properly.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 16:39:31 1996
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:47:23 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: John Gilgun

>        I don't think graduate students in English have to do it any more
>but at the University of Iowa around 1970 (when i got the Ph.D) one had
>to take one semester of the shorter Anglo Saxon poems, one semester of
>Beowulf and one semester of English literature from the 12th through the
>15th Century. It was not difficult to memorize the Anglo Saxon poems once
>I understood the devices the bards used to memorize them (alliteration,
>the number of beats on each side of the ceasura, the mnemomic devices.)
>The poems are formulaic. Phrases are repeated again and again. Memorizing
>these poems was a wonderful experience because it took total
>concentration and memorizing "removed me from the world." I felt no pain
>when I was immersed in memorizing these poems. I was removed from the
>world. It was like a religious experience. Total discipline, total
>immersion, a total head trip. It was the greatest experience of reading
>poetry that I have ever had. In 1992 in Aspen my teacher Ed Hirsch asked
>us to memorize a poem. I chose Auden's "As I Walked Out One Evening." I
>had a similar experience with this. People lost a LOT when they stopped
>needing to memorize poetry. Nothing equals that experience.
>                                        --John Gilgun


Okay.  You win.  You nearly convinced me to open up my Norton Anthology and
begin memorizing toute de suite.

Jason Tarricone


From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 16:46:29 1996
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:54:14 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: Assignment.

>On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Jason, as Count Chocula, wrote:
>
>> Oh well.  Yeats, too, is an incredible poet, and he falls within
>> Forche's guidelines.
>
>God! first they appropriate Eliot, now Yeats.  Who will the Americans
>claim next?
>
>Nick  :)


Oops.  Sorry Nick.  I had forgotten that Forche intended for them to read
only Americans writing after 1912.  Forgive me now and at the hour of my
death.  I am not wordy.

Jason


From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 17:14:46 1996
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 15:13:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: D. Davie on TSE
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 20:42:40,
thus spake Barry Edwards:

BE>In working on an essay on Pound's prosody, I came across the following
BE>comment by Donald Davie: ". . . Eliot had no ear for verse that was
BE>truly 'free' but only for verse that departed--boldly sometimes, timidly
BE>sometimes--from a standard meter like the Jacobean pentameter" (_Ezra
BE>Pound_ [Chicago, U of Chicago P, 1975] 89).
This is just plain ignorance. See Dame Helen's book THE ART OF T.S.ELIOT
for a good exam. of E's prosody.

BE>It seems to me that Davie is mistaking TSE's frequent desire to employ
BE>variations of more-traditional meters (either _for_ their effects or to
BE>ironize those effects) with an inability to move beyond them, which he
BE>(TSE) does even more frequently.  It's noteworthy that using traditional
BE>meters, as Davie notes, is consistent w/ EP and TSE's agenda (which
BE>argued that one shld. only use non-traditional meters when the emotion
BE>to be expressed cannot be expressed by those meters).
BE>Just thought I'd bring this up and see what you (all) think.

I'm really surprised no one else has taken this up.
Davie's observations are just laughable in the con-
text of the endless jibes Eliot took over the so-
called prose sections of 4Q.

No question that Eliot preferred more rhythm in his
vers libre than Pound, but that he didn't have an
ear for common phrasings that appeared a-rythmical?
Come on. What's the dialogue in TWL's Game of Chess
all about?

The truth of the matter is that he had a better
ear for the rhythmics of common speech than most
others, probably Pound included.

Then of course there are the experiemnts like Sweeney Agonistes.
Always saddened me that he never did that one up.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 17:36:41 1996
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 18:44:34 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: Assignment.


>if I had the chance. I wonder if meathead (cannibal food)
>might be in there somewhere?
>


Are you inferring that I am a meathead?


From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 17:45:46 1996
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Oh Peter, Peter.

     A little kindness goes a long way.  Even TSE wasn't perfect!

Jackie

>On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 08:26:17,
>thus spake [log in to unmask]:
>
>A>Unsuscribe.
>
>I think if people play the game, they should learn the rules.
>On my list, anyone who does this just goes onto the IGNORED
>list, and so continues to receive posts, but can't send any.
>They are in limbo until they unsubscribe properly.
>
>Cheers,
>Peter
>*************************************************************
>*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
>*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
>*************************************************************
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 17:46:19 1996
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 15:45:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: unsuscribe
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Yes, it is play rather than work, isn't it?  What better reason to
unsubscribe.
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 17:51:54 1996
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Barbara -

     Before Peter gets you:

          To UNSUBSCRIBE:

      Send the following message to [log in to unmask],
     leaving the Subject line blank:

          UNSUBSCRIBE Your Name

Good luck.

Jackie

>Sorry to bother the list with this.  I have misplaced my 
>original instructions.  Need to unsubscribe for a while.  Thanks 
>for any help.
>Barbara Laman
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 17:55:53 1996
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Subject: Barbara - Mistake.
X-Mailer: <Windows Eudora Version 2.0.2>

When you type UNSUBSCRIBE You add TSE - not your name.  Sorry.

Jackie     

>Sorry to bother the list with this.  I have misplaced my 
>original instructions.  Need to unsubscribe for a while.  Thanks 
>for any help.
>Barbara Laman
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 18:12:52 1996
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 19:12:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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This is stupidity.  Eliot was born in St. Louis, educated in the US,
most of his influences were American.  He later chose to become a
British citizen for RELIGIOUS reasons.  MOST US POETS ARE AMERICANS
(have you ever heard of Walt Whitman and what he stood for?) and your
high-handed colonial attitude is an insult.  (William Carlos Williams?)
The English language is a polyglot of many languages, upon which
Americans have had a profound effect (ask the French academy).  
The next pervasive english speaking culture will compound the language's
influence, because the language allows new words to be absorbed, not
because of any long lasting British affect.  Get over yourself.

On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> On Thursday, 08 Feb 1996, at 23:11:48,
> thus spake Jonathan Crowther:
> 
> JC>Is TSE really an American or an English poet ? 
> 
> Ooops I forgot to speak to this one. Of course E. was
> an English poet, as are ALL U.S poets (we can't say
> American, because the poets of Latin America are definitely
> not English). Any poet who writes in English is an English
> poet. Whether or not E. buggered English poetry is moot.
> He certainly changed it. No question. Whether other USian
> poets have buggered English poetry isn't so hard to figure
> out. Outside of Pound and maybe one or two others,  none
> have done much to change it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> *************************************************************
> *  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
> *            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
> *************************************************************
> 
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 19:39:48 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:36:00 +0900
From: "Prof. Hishikawa," <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Introduction
To: [log in to unmask]

Hello! Sorry to interrupt the ongoing discussion, let me briefly introduce
myself before my mail server explodes (mine accepts only 24 mails at a time).
I've been a happy lurker since November 1995.

I teach Anglo-American literature on the Faculty of Letters at Kobe U, Japan;
author of a few books, including the concordance to Arnaut Daniel's poems
(a limited edition, please e-mail me if you'd like to get this),
and of papers, including one on the machine readable texts of TSE.

I am interested in the relationship between Daniel and modern poets like
Eliot and Pound, Occitan poetics and modernist poetics, etc.

Eiichi Hishikawa
Assoc. Prof., Faculty of Letters, Kobe U
E-mail: [log in to unmask]  OR  [log in to unmask]
(if my address at niftyserve can't be reached please use Kobe U address)
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 19:51:27 1996
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Modernism etc
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On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 21:18:57,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>Modernism fits in as follows:
JC>1. Early Christian apocalyptic
JC>2. Early church hellenistic
JC>3. Medieval Roman Catholic
JC>4. Reformation Protestant
JC>5. Enlightenment / Modern
JC>6. Post Modern

Interesting that only one of those has to use a previous name
to define itself. Perhaps that's because it doean't know
what it really is. It knows only what it isn't.

JC>Each cultural sea change is both a reaction against the previous 
JC>orthodoxy, hence modernism = "post enlightenmentism", and itself the 
JC>precursor of its own reaction, hence ""post"-modernism".
Keep in mind that these characterisations are ex post facto
appearances of reactions against previous ages. The ages themselves
didn't necessarily reject what preceded them.

BTW, where is the Renaissance in that list, or doesn't it
qualify? Then of course there is J.S.Bach goin for Baroque,
no to mention Rococco, or neo-classical or romantic. I sus-
pect that even a person who likes categorising (one off-
list message about classification I got referred to Prufrock's
lines about "Eyes that fix you with a formulated phrase, &c"
saw the above list, he or she would find it grossly inadequate.

JC>The question I raise again is who is a post-modern poet?  I would 
JC>really like to know.
Why?

Undoubtedly the person would be a post poetic poet as well,
and what would be the enjoyment in such a person's work.

I guess if we say that the modernist period waned in the early fifties,
and was moribund by the early seventies, then we could say that
either (or both of) Elvis Presley and/or the Beatles would be
post modern. In fact I think by the middle of the next century
(quite possibly earlier) when the various artistic elements of
this century are synthesised into some kind of coherency, the period
after modernism will more likely be called the Rock period.
(like a Chevy). That people like Jim Morrison would crawl in
there, there can be no doubt. See my essay in:

Wissolik, Sir Richard and Scott McGrath. BOB DYLAN'S WORDS: A
CRITICAL DICTIONARY AND COMMENTARY. Greensburg, PA: Eadmer Press,
1994. The essay is titled "Dylan in Ol' Possum's Diamond Mine."

JC>As for Poe can I refer to "Wrinkles in Time" by George Smoot 
JC>published by Little Brown & Co 1993 pages 28-30 where Poe is credited 
JC>with the true explanation of "Olbers's Paradox", which is infinitely,excuse
JC>the pun, more interesting than that of the Cretan Liar.  Poe is 
JC>credited by Smoot with the intuitive discovery,as opposed to the revelation
JC>that the universe had a beginning.  This may be one of the reasons 
JC>why the French found Poe so discipleworthy.  TSE's essay on Poe to 
JC>Valery doesn't really do the job.  I would really like to know about 
JC>TSE's real relationship to Poe.

I don't have my Eliot wrench and screw driver handy, so I can't
speak directly to the Poe issue, but the symbolist/Baudelairean
connection is available to me right now, and is obviously relevant.
If they learned some of their stuff from Poe (which nobody questions
so far as I know), then he is lurking in the background here:

      Baudelaire and LaForgue:
      ========================
      I think that from Baudelaire I learned first a precedent for the
      poetical possibilities, never developed by any poet writing in my
      own language, of the more sordid aspects of the modern metropolis,
      of the possibility of fusion between the sordidly realistic and the
      phangtasmagoric, the possibility of the juxtaposition of the matter
      of fact and the fantastic. From him, as from Laforgue, I learned
      that the sort of material that I had, the sort of experience that
      an adolescent had had, in an industrial city in America, could be
      the material for poetry; and that the source of new poetry might be
      found in what had been regarded hitherto as the impossible, the
      sterile, the intractably unpoetic. That, in fact, the business of
      the poet was to make poetry out of the unexplored resources of the
      unpoetical; that the poet, in fact, was committed by his profession
      to turn the unpoetical into poetry. A great poet can give a younger
      poet everything that he has to give him, in a very few lines. It may
      be that I am indebted to Baudelaire chiefly for half a dozen lines
      out of the whole of FLEURS DU MAL and that his significance for me
      is summed up in the lines:
       	Fourmillante Cite, cite pleine dereves,
       	Ou le spectre en plein jour raccroche le passant...
      I knew what THAT meant, because I had lived it before I knew that I
      wanted to turn it into verse on my own account.
      ------------------------------------------------------------ 
      Eliot, T.S. "What Dante Means to Me." TO CRITICIZE THE CRITIC.
         London: Faber, 1965. 

=======================================================================

      When Baudelaire's Satanism is dissociated from its less creditable
      paraphernalia, it amounts to a dim intuition of a part, but a very
      important part, of Christianity. Satanism itself, so far as not merely
      an affectation, was an attempt to get into Christianity by the back
      door. Genuine blasphemy, genuine in spirit and not merely verbal, is
      the product of a partial belief, and is as impossible to the com-
      plete athiest as to the perfect Christian.
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Eliot, T.S. "Baudelaire." SELECTED ESSAYS. London: Faber, 1963.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb  9 20:20:38 1996
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:27:17 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Postmodern American Poets.
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	They are to be found in Postmodern American Poetry edited by Paul 
Hoover (Norton.) Many people would probably agree that the following 
poets can be considered "Postmodern:"
	Lyn Hejinian
	Charles Bernstein
	Leslie Scalapino
	Ron Silliman
	Clark Coolidge
	David Antin
	Jackson Mac Low
	John Cage
				* 
						--John Gilgun 


On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, Jonathan Crowther wrote:

> Modernism fits in as follows:
> 
> 1. Early Christian apocalyptic
> 2. Early church hellenistic
> 3. Medieval Roman Catholic
> 4. Reformation Protestant
> 5. Enlightenment / Modern
> 6. Post Modern
> 
> (See Hans Kung "Church and Challenge" only available in Ireland I 
> understand.)
>  
> Each cultural sea change is both a reaction against the previous 
> orthodoxy, hence modernism = "post enlightenmentism", and itself the 
> precursor of its own reaction, hence ""post"-modernism".
> 
> The question I raise again is who is a post-modern poet?  I would 
> really like to know.
> 
> As for Poe can I refer to "Wrinkles in Time" by George Smoot 
> published by Little Brown & Co 1993 pages 28-30 where Poe is credited 
> with the true explanation of "Olbers's Paradox", which is infinitely, excuse 
> the pun, more interesting than that of the Cretan Liar.  Poe is 
> credited by Smoot with the intuitive discovery, as opposed to the revelation, 
> that the universe had a beginning.  This may be one of the reasons 
> why the French found Poe so discipleworthy.  TSE's essay on Poe to 
> Valery doesn't really do the job.  I would really like to know about 
> TSE's real relationship to Poe.  Was it horribly sublimated in the 
> horror of TSE's verse as the horrors of his first marriage were?  Is 
> the flight from peronality a flight from Viv and Edgar?  I would 
> really like to know.
> 
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 01:49:20 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (David Lumsden)
Subject: TSE & Matthew Arnold

First posting to the list, so a quick intro: My name is David Lumsden; I
live in Melbourne, Australia.  I work as a software designer.  I'm not a
literature student, but I enjoy reading poetry & now and then manage to
write a poem.  I've been a TSE fan since school.

I have recently been reading Matthew Arnold's poetry and keep on 'hearing'
the sonoroties of Eliot.  Am I imagining it, or is there some fairly
substantial connection in terms of influence between the poets?

Do we know much about what TSE thought of Arnold?

Here are some examples from Arnold's 'Buried Life' which to my ear,
pre-echo Eliot:

  Are even lovers powerless to reveal
  To one another what indeed they feel?

  . . .

  But often, in the world's most crowded streets,
  But often, in the din of strife,
  There rises an unspeakable desire
  After the knowledge of our buried life;
  A thirst to spend our fire and restless force
  In tracking out our true, original course.

  . . .

  Yet still, from time to time, vague and forlorn,
  From the soul's subterranean depth upborne
  As from an infinitely distant land,
  Come airs, and floating echoes, and convey
  A melancholy into all our day.

  . . .

  When, jaded with the rush and glare
  Of the interminable hours,
  Our eyes can in another's eyes read clear,
  When our world-deafen'd ear
  Is by the tones of a loved voice caress'd --
  A bolt is shot back somewhere in our breast
  And a lost pulse of feeling stirs again.
  The eyes sink inward, and the heart lies plain


---------------------------------
David Lumsden
P.O.Box 182
East Melbourne
VIC. 3002
Australia
---------------------------------


From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 02:36:56 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:36:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 18:44:34,
thus spake Count Chocula:

>>if I had the chance. I wonder if meathead (cannibal food)
>>might be in there somewhere?
CC>Are you inferring that I am a meathead?
I wasn't inferring anything, since I didn't
discover any inferences from which I could
infer things.
..
Nor was I implying anything. Farthest thimg from my mind.


I was however, marveling at the possibility that English
might be returning to the use of kennings. What a delightful
thought.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 02:40:10 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
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On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 18:45:42,
thus spake tosca:

t>Oh Peter, Peter.
t>
t>     A little kindness goes a long way.  Even TSE wasn't perfect!
t>
t>Jackie

O Jackie, Jackie,
	Wait til you've managed a list for three or four
years and discovered how grossly inconsiderate some people
can be. One does no kindness by reinforcing such
behaviour.

Are you sure Eliot wasn't perfect? Gosh, and all this time....


Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 03:31:02 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 01:30:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 19:12:47,
thus spake Virginia A Conn:

>> JC>Is TSE really an American or an English poet ? 
>> Ooops I forgot to speak to this one. Of course E. was
>> an English poet, as are ALL U.S poets (we can't say
>> American, because the poets of Latin America are definitely
>> not English). Any poet who writes in English is an English
>> poet. Whether or not E. buggered English poetry is moot.
>> He certainly changed it. No question. Whether other USian
>> poets have buggered English poetry isn't so hard to figure
>> out. Outside of Pound and maybe one or two others,  none
>> have done much to change it.

VA>This is stupidity.  Eliot was born in St. Louis, educated in the US,
VA>most of his influences were American.  He later chose to become a
VA>British citizen for RELIGIOUS reasons.  MOST US POETS ARE AMERICANS
VA>(have you ever heard of Walt Whitman and what he stood for?) and your
VA>high-handed colonial attitude is an insult.  (William Carlos Williams?)
VA>The English language is a polyglot of many languages, upon which
VA>Americans have had a profound effect (ask the French academy).  
VA>The next pervasive english speaking culture will compound the language's
VA>influence, because the language allows new words to be absorbed, not
VA>because of any long lasting British affect.  Get over yourself.

Impossible. I love myself too much. At least as much as I
love my neighbor. But I love God more. -- You raised the
point. I was content to talk about Eliot.

Since English is now the lingua franca of the world, I think
national distinctions are of minimal significance. Everyone's
English resonates with all kinds of worldly influences. Looks
to me like you're confusing speech with nationalism (that
dead hairball of the 19th century). The language is not the
possession of any nation (especially not if it's the official
language of the European parliament, or so I've been told).

Funny, I don't remember making any personal remarks.
It is a fact that a huge lot of people outside of the US
do think of the whole western hemisphere when they hear the
word, America. If we are going to use the language on a global
scale, we might as well be precise. If the United States tends
to think of itself as ALL of America, then perhaps IT has
something to get over. (With all the current anti-hispanic
feelings, I'm surprised it wants to use the name at all.)

Now-a-days colonialism tends to be in the eye of the beholder.
Fix me with your formulated phrases all you want. I find being
formulated and sprawling on a pin and wriggling on the wall
rather stimulating. (Again, you raised the question of my
attitudes, not me).

As for Eliot's nationality (or subjectivity to the monarch --
he did say he was a Royalist), all I can say is he wore a white
rose every year on the anniversary of the Battle of Bosworth
field. According to his sister he saw Ricky III as the last
English king. He also agreed with his sister that he had an
indestructible USian streak in himself. I guess that's where the
cargo of dead negroes in the Dry Salvages (another USian allu-
sion) comes in.

In any case, somebody asked if E. was a US or an English poet.
If I had known that English was the wrong answer, I wouldn't
have bothered replying.

Where does all this leave Henry James, btw? Somewhere in the
middle of the Atlantic?

Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 03:55:17 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 01:54:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE & Matthew Arnold
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On Saturday, 10 Feb 1996, at 18:48:58,
thus spake David Lumsden:

DL>I have recently been reading Matthew Arnold's poetry and keep on 'hearing'
DL>the sonoroties of Eliot.  Am I imagining it, or is there some fairly
DL>substantial connection in terms of influence between the poets?
DL>
DL>Do we know much about what TSE thought of Arnold?

Eliot composed a very fine lecture about Arnold in his 1932/33 lectures
at Harvard, later published as THE USE OF POETRY AND THE USE OF
CRITICISM. Judging by a number of passages he had a genuine liking
for Arnold's poetry, but from a critical stance he is always
qualifying his judgements to suggest that he thought Arnold's
poetical talent quite limited. I suppose rather than saying he
damned Arnold with faint praise, one might reverse the terms and
say he praised with faint damnation.

I think your question is a valid and important one. I await what others
might have to say. All I remember from Arnold is a line something
about "A long withdrawing roar" to do with the dying (in Arnold's
eyes) of Christianity. I suppose it parallels the "hard and bitter
agony" theme of "The Journey of the Magi"

Judging by the passages you cite, and they are telling -- I see
what you are referring to -- I wonder if E. & A. don't both have
a homage to pay to John Dryden.

The same set of lectures includes one titled "The Modern Mind"
which might be of interest to participants of another thread
on this list.

Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 04:48:47 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 02:48:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Eliot and Poe
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Eliot is quite explicit in his opinions about Poe in
 "American Literature and the American Language." He
 marvels at the powerful influence of Poe on the French,
 and the total lack of influence of Poe on the English
 and the U.S. with the possible exception of Edward Lear.

"How is it that Poe can be chosen as a distinctively American
 author, when there is so little evidence that any American
 poet since Poe has written any differently than he would have
 written if Poe had never lived?"

I suppose we could claim that E. had not the distance on his
 own work to be able with certainty to say whether he would have
 composed differently had Poe never lived. Probably Baudelaire
 and LaForge would have been different, and so Eliot?

So if there is evidence of a Poeian influence in ELiot, I'm sure
 open to looking at it. Given Poe's ambition to portray the
 human mind watching itself go mad, I suppose we could look at
 Eliot's use of the Eumenides or forces like them, in MURDER IN
 THE CATHEDRAL and THE FAMILY REUNION. Is Eliot's interest in
 healing the influences of those forces evidence that Poe isn't
 their source? Who's to say? They're very gruesomely present in
 SWEENEY AGONISTES as well. I suspect if we put the challenge
 to Eliot he would suggest the source was Greek Tragedy, perhaps
 with a strong dose of Seneca and the Elizabethans.

Eliot puts Poe's unique characteristics down to an unconscious
 universality that derives from being local. Universality comes
 from writing about what one knows deeply and thoroughly. Poe
 never travelled. On the other hand, Eliot can't seem to find
 what aspect of Poe's localism is so thoroughly present in Poe's
 work. It is an enigma similar to what E. saw in Blake, in whom
 E. called the equivalent phenomenon provincialism or words to
 that effect. Could one posit that what Poe knew so completely
 and thoroughly from his locale was not any physical or social
 field, but the mind, at least his own mind?

"It is very puzzling, but then Poe remains an enigma, a stumbling
 block for the critic."

Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 07:49:46 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 13:48:14 +0000
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Having posted a couple of items and browsed through the TSE 
list archives I thought I had better introduce myself.

I discovered TSE at around age 14 via Auden's The Orators 
(rediscovered after many years in The English Auden).  I shall never 
forget the yellow fog entering my imagination one lunchtime in the 
school library!  Pound, Joyce and Yeats and more Auden quickly 
followed and off I went to Trinity College, Dublin to study maths.  
This was abandonned after one term for philosophy.  

Let's face it I reallywanted to do was  to walk from Dun Laoghaire
 (aka Kingstown) to Dublin thinking through 
"Ineluctable modality of the visible etc".  I did my MA thesis on 
Bradley "Degrees of Truth and Reality in the philosophy of F H 
Bradley" following in the footsteps of the Master.  Bradley was 
universally loathed along with Hegel in Oxbridge and TCD at that time 
and, let's face it, the thesis probably wasn't much good anyway and I got a 
third for it which ended any chance of an academic career.

I then qualified as a public accountant and worked in the Middle East
(Iran, Saudi, Oman, Kuwait and Dubai) for 9 years.  I am now a 
director in a bank (!) specialising in offshore taxation.   

Whilst remaining outside of the Church for many years FQ's was  
always my spiritual handbook.  I am now a reader (the teaching and preaching 
lay office in the Anglican Church) and preach and lead services 
regularly (about 20 sermons a year) in a little chapel perilous in 
Jersey in the UK Channel Islands and am studying for a theology 
degree with the UK Open Theological College.

So I suppose TSE has had quite an influence on me one way and 
another.  I did find East Coker one day, quite by accident, my wife 
and I were travelling to Lyme Regis (of French Lieutenant's Woman  fame)
and I saw a sign post that said "East Coker", I had had no idea where 
it was.

Anyway we went there and found the unmentioned village church  
and the Master's ashes there commemorated by a small blue plaque.  I would 
recommend a visit; there are copies of A Guide to St Michael's 
Church, East Coker, Somerset and TSE's Funeral Service freely 
available.  It is profoundly moving, especially the lane where the 
van passes and the fair field full of folk and of course the drafty 
church so artfully hidden in Little Gidding  when it is really in East Coker!

I have used Ash Wednesday in the Ash Wednesday service stiched into the 
shorter form of Evening Prayer, the Journey of the Magi at the Carol 
Service  and frequently lift chunks of FQ's into the prayers: as EP said "Read him!".

I mention all of this to give you some idea of the power of TSE's 
work and its usefullness on a child of the Fifties.  

If Hans Kung is correct and there are epochal paradigms (I think that 
EP called it paideuma and TSE culture) which include 
the whole constellation of cultural / scientific / business / 
religious 
values and procedures then it is surely important to know where you 
are and how you got there.  Perhaps these are just the worries of
a 45 year old man: I grow old, I grow old, I DO wear the bottoms of 
my trousers rolled !

Philip Hobsbaum's book has got me into Piers Ploughman, the excellent 
Everyman edition first published in 1978, the Wordsworth of the real 
Prelude, the 1805 version first published I believe in 1979 (I was 
undergoing the Iranian revolution and a divorce in those years) and the real Milton 
but at the price of having to eject TSE from the Anglican tradition, 
the very person who got me into the Anglican tradition!

That tradition it seems to me was found in David Jones and continues in, 
say, Jack Clemo, whom to quote:

We cannot fuse with fallen Nature's
     Our rhythmic tide:
     It is allied
With laws beyond the creatures.

It draws from older, sterner oceans
    Its sensuous swell:
   Too near to Hell
Are we for earthly motions.

Our love is full grown Dogma's offspring
   Election's child
   Making the wild
Heats of our blood an offering.

Incidentally didn't "After Strange Gods" come from the Biblical 
"whoring after strange gods"?



 
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 10:42:39 1996
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From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia
To: David Chinitz (remote) <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:41:56 -0600
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David Chinitz asks, quite reasonably:
> Would you please explain, for those of us who are new to this, what
> it means to "receive listmail in digest form," and what exactly
> happens if we request that?  I don't know if I want it or not...
> 
Setting your MAIL to DIGEST means that instead of getting 50 small listmail 
messages in a given day, for instance, you will get one huge message containing 
all 50 of them.  You won't miss out on any of the exciting specifics of list 
discussions (i.e., this ain't the Reader's Digest Condensed Eliot List).

Some people find that setting lists to digest mode makes their lives easier,
since they can just scroll through that large message to see whether there's
anything of interest in it.  On the other hand, it becomes more a little
difficult to follow and/or respond to specific threads, and if you are in the
habit of keeping especially interesting posts, you will have to separate them
out of the large digest message somehow if you don't want to keep a lot of
irrelevant stuff as well. 

Greg Foster
******************************************************************************
"That my mind became developed through my pursuits during the voyage [of the
_Beagle_], is rendered probable by a remark made by my father, who was the
most acute observer whom I ever saw, . . . for on first seeing me after the
voyage, he turned round to my sisters and exclaimed, 'Why, the shape of his
head is quite altered.'" --Darwin
******************************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 14:28:39 1996
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On Sat, 10 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 18:45:42,
> thus spake tosca:
> 
> t>Oh Peter, Peter.
> t>
> t>     A little kindness goes a long way.  Even TSE wasn't perfect!
> t>
> t>Jackie
> 
> O Jackie, Jackie,
> 	Wait til you've managed a list for three or four
> years and discovered how grossly inconsiderate some people
> can be. One does no kindness by reinforcing such
> behaviour.
> 
> Are you sure Eliot wasn't perfect? Gosh, and all this time....
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> *************************************************************
> *  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
> *            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
> *************************************************************

If Eliot was human, he was not perfect. Anyway he was a good guy !

JS
Student in English Literature and other subject 
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 15:38:46 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:36:57 +0000
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Thanks for the comments on this which were very helpful.

How about this:

In pt III of East Coker TSE starts:

"O dark, dark, dark. They all go into the dark.
The vacant interstellar spaces, the vacant into the vacant. etc"

Now I find these lines down to "......the Directory of Directors.", 
which I think I am in, very weak, indeed TSE's weakest.

The interstellar spaces are a lift from Pascal.  The dark etc is 
surely a lift from Lear's "Never, never, etc" which TSE quotes as 
Shakespeare's greatest line.

Now Olber's paradox says that if the cosmos is infinite in time and 
space then the night sky would be perfectly white.  Since it is not 
the cosmos is not infinite.  Poe discovered that the only explanation 
of the paradox is that the cosmos is expanding.  The darkness at 
night is the beginning of time.  It is the inside of the singularity. 
In its end is its beginning.  This is quite a thought.

Now, had Eliot bothered with Poe as the French had bothered with him 
he would have had the lines necessary for pt III of East Coker.

Can we hypothesise them ?

How about:

"O dark, dark, dark, in the darkness is the beginning
from which we have all begun and must end
and often at night on London Bridge I have attended on
the vacant interstellar spaces and on men
committed to a final understanding
and the ghosts of those disembarking from trains at Waterloo
clutching the Stock Exchange Gazette and the Directory of Directors.
And cold the sense....."  

Or is this heterodox blasphemy?
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 15:38:48 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:36:57 +0000
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Kenner says in his intro to A Sinking Island:

"For centuries too, English literature was what some denizens of 
England wrote for others to read, the way Dutch literature is meant 
for reading in Holland.  If some of it chanced to get written 
elsewhere - e.g. in America, a former possession - it was still made 
literature by English approbation.  Walt Whitman was a real poet only 
after 1868, when William Michael Rossetti hailed his accord with 
pre-Raphaelite revolutionary sentiment, and Americans felt duly 
flattered.

"That is no longer true.  There is now a literature written out of 
English dictionaries that England either can't claim or doesn't know 
if it wants to.  English by about 1930 had ceased to be simply the 
language they speak in England.  It had been split four ways.  It was 
(1) the language of International Modernism, having displaced French 
in that role.  And it was (2) the literary language of Ireland, and 
(3) of America, and, (4) yes, of England, countries which International 
Modernism bids us think of as the Three Provinces.

"International Modernism is a name for the durable writing no 
national tradition can plausibly claim".

This may explain TSE's references to the European mind.  But TSE was 
committed to three traditions: (1) International Modernism alias the 
Eurpoean mind begun by the painters at Lascaux, (2) the Anglican 
tradition, hence Lancelot Andrewes, Donne, churchwardenship et al and 
(2) the American tradition, hence the Dry Salvages, which pace, the 
Faerie Queen, was where this thread began. 

As TSE says in his introduction to Huckleberry Finn (!!!) in 1950:

"There are perhaps only two ways in which a writer can acquire an 
understanding of environment which he can later turn to account: by 
having spent his childhood in that environment - that is, living in 
it in a period of life in which one experiences much more than one is 
aware of; and by having to struggle for a livelihood in that 
environment."

TSE is usually happily accepted into the Anglican tradition (the 
environment in which he had had to struggle to make a living) and as 
an International Modernist but not happily into the American 
tradition (the environment of his childhood). 

Isn't it about time that he was?  Come on all you Yanks, 
welcome him home!!

As for us English ("Written I ween twas not my wish in lean 
unlovely english.") let us both ecumenicise our tradition by getting 
to grips with international modernism and not pretending that Eliot, 
Pound, Joyce etc never existed and at the same time return to the
monuments of our tradition i.e. Piers Ploughman, the Canterbury 
Tales, the Prelude, Paradise Lost, Jonson, Dryden 
etc.  Let us english also read and inwardly digest the great USian tradition 
of Anne Bradstreet, Emily Dickinson, Poe, Whitman, Melville, Pound, 
Williams, Eliot, Berryman, Moore, Plath (pleas excuse my insular 
ignorance).

Sorry, I'm starting to write tomorow's sermon and the 
Ulster ceasefire has broken down:

"Out of Ireland have I come
great hatred little room
maimed us at the start
I carry from my mother's womb
a fanatic heart."

TSE thou shouldst be living at this moment.
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 15:38:55 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:36:57 +0000
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I think the lines come from Dover Beach by MA.  The phrase "the sea 
of faith" became the title of a book tracing the decline of 
Christianity in England following Darwin's revelations.
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 15:47:24 1996
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Date: 10 Feb 96 16:43:40 EST
From: Andrew Howald <[log in to unmask]>
To: tse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>


>This is stupidity.  Eliot was born in St. Louis, educated in the US,most of his
influences were American.  He >later chose to become a
>British citizen for RELIGIOUS reasons.  MOST US POETS ARE AMERICANS
>(have you ever heard of Walt Whitman and what he stood for?) and your
>high-handed colonial attitude is an insult.  (William Carlos Williams?)
>The English language is a polyglot of many languages, upon which
>Americans have had a profound effect (ask the French academy).  
>The next pervasive english speaking culture will compound the language's
i>nfluence, because the language allows new words to be absorbed, not
>because of any long lasting British affect.  Get over yourself.

Yes!  "Get over yourself" is the aptest comment, since what Peter (Cheers!)
 Montgomery betrays is a sort of  solipsism.   The fantastic foment of American
 poets like (examples at random) John Berryman, Frank O'Hara, John Cage,
 Allen Ginsburg, et al.--and he makes a haughty statement like that.  Clearly he
 resides in some very British swamp on the island of Laputa.  


From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 17:27:41 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:27:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Daytime Walk Rant <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Modern/contemporary?
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On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> identify themselves as modernists? Seems to me, the only movements
> Pound committed himself to were Bel Esprit and Social Credit. (We won't
> mention Fascism, for that might implicate him with the Futurists.) He
> wouldn't even lend his name to direct involvement in imagism.


Vorticism?


> 'Twas a tale told by an Eliot, full of Pound and theory....
> 
> Peter
> *************************************************************
> *  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
> *            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
> *************************************************************

-------------------------------------
Danny Wyatt
[log in to unmask]
http://www.columbia.edu/~dmw22
Come forth, Lazarus!  And he came fifth and lost the job.


From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 10 18:03:47 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 16:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Sending list commands to the list itself
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I've had some very interesting feed back both pro and con
about my statement of practise for my list. (I did say it was
my practise; I didn't say it would necessarily be appropriate
for TSE). I gather there is some lack of knowledge about why it
is a serious matter for some people when unnecessary posts come
through. While most people in education get the service as an
apparent freebie, a lot of people pay, and some quite dearly,
not only for the posting service, but for the disk space that
holds their received msgs, and that is often quite limited.
One message over the limit and they are temporarily out of
business. It seems to me that there can't be much justification
for allowing that to happen.

As for the rest, I've had my say. It's someone else's turn.
I haven't seen CATS, soFrom [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 09:42:18 1996
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From: "Peter Quigley" <[log in to unmask]>
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re[2]: TSE & Matthew Arnold

David,
the connection works in several ways I think. Poetic differences aside there is 
the sense and the judgment of the end of any substantial and meaningful culture 
(whatever in "the traditional sense" might mean). Also in Dover Beach when 
Arnold leans on the poor woman to sooth his cosmic angst I cant help but think 
of Eliot's Waste Land complaints about the lack of meaningful human/sexual 
contact...In some ways Waste Land is a simple evolution of the themes in Dover. 
I need to add "one might say" to placate our sensitive critical natures...

_______________________________________________________________________________

Subject: Re: TSE & Matthew Arnold

From:    [log in to unmask] at Internet-Mail

Date:    2/10/96  5:11 AM



On Saturday, 10 Feb 1996, at 18:48:58,
thus spake David Lumsden:

DL>I have recently been reading Matthew Arnold's poetry and keep on 'hearing'
DL>the sonoroties of Eliot.  Am I imagining it, or is there some fairly
DL>substantial connection in terms of influence between the poets?
DL>
DL>Do we know much about what TSE thought of Arnold?

Eliot composed a very fine lecture about Arnold in his 1932/33 lectures
at Harvard, later published as THE USE OF POETRY AND THE USE OF
CRITICISM. Judging by a number of passages he had a genuine liking
for Arnold's poetry, but from a critical stance he is always
qualifying his judgements to suggest that he thought Arnold's
poetical talent quite limited. I suppose rather than saying he
damned Arnold with faint praise, one might reverse the terms and
say he praised with faint damnation.

I think your question is a valid and important one. I await what others
might have to say. All I remember from Arnold is a line something
about "A long withdrawing roar" to do with the dying (in Arnold's
eyes) of Christianity. I suppose it parallels the "hard and bitter
agony" theme of "The Journey of the Magi"

Judging by the passages you cite, and they are telling -- I see
what you are referring to -- I wonder if E. & A. don't both have
a homage to pay to John Dryden.

The same set of lectures includes one titled "The Modern Mind"
which might be of interest to participants of another thread
on this list.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************

From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 09:52:14 1996
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From: "Peter Quigley" <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re[2]: Modernism etc

candidate for post modern poet classification: Leslie Scalipino, Kenneth Koch?

_______________________________________________________________________________

Subject: Re: Modernism etc

From:    [log in to unmask] at Internet-Mail

Date:    2/10/96  1:04 AM



On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 21:18:57,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>Modernism fits in as follows:
JC>1. Early Christian apocalyptic
JC>2. Early church hellenistic
JC>3. Medieval Roman Catholic
JC>4. Reformation Protestant
JC>5. Enlightenment / Modern
JC>6. Post Modern

Interesting that only one of those has to use a previous name
to define itself. Perhaps that's because it doean't know
what it really is. It knows only what it isn't.

JC>Each cultural sea change is both a reaction against the previous 
JC>orthodoxy, hence modernism = "post enlightenmentism", and itself the 
JC>precursor of its own reaction, hence ""post"-modernism".
Keep in mind that these characterisations are ex post facto
appearances of reactions against previous ages. The ages themselves
didn't necessarily reject what preceded them.

BTW, where is the Renaissance in that list, or doesn't it
qualify? Then of course there is J.S.Bach goin for Baroque,
no to mention Rococco, or neo-classical or romantic. I sus-
pect that even a person who likes categorising (one off-
list message about classification I got referred to Prufrock's
lines about "Eyes that fix you with a formulated phrase, &c"
saw the above list, he or she would find it grossly inadequate.

JC>The question I raise again is who is a post-modern poet?  I would 
JC>really like to know.
Why?

Undoubtedly the person would be a post poetic poet as well,
and what would be the enjoyment in such a person's work.

I guess if we say that the modernist period waned in the early fifties,
and was moribund by the early seventies, then we could say that
either (or both of) Elvis Presley and/or the Beatles would be
post modern. In fact I think by the middle of the next century
(quite possibly earlier) when the various artistic elements of
this century are synthesised into some kind of coherency, the period
after modernism will more likely be called the Rock period.
(like a Chevy). That people like Jim Morrison would crawl in
there, there can be no doubt. See my essay in:

Wissolik, Sir Richard and Scott McGrath. BOB DYLAN'S WORDS: A
CRITICAL DICTIONARY AND COMMENTARY. Greensburg, PA: Eadmer Press,
1994. The essay is titled "Dylan in Ol' Possum's Diamond Mine."

JC>As for Poe can I refer to "Wrinkles in Time" by George Smoot 
JC>published by Little Brown & Co 1993 pages 28-30 where Poe is credited 
JC>with the true explanation of "Olbers's Paradox", which is infinitely,excuse
JC>the pun, more interesting than that of the Cretan Liar.  Poe is 
JC>credited by Smoot with the intuitive discovery,as opposed to the revelation
JC>that the universe had a beginning.  This may be one of the reasons 
JC>why the French found Poe so discipleworthy.  TSE's essay on Poe to 
JC>Valery doesn't really do the job.  I would really like to know about 
JC>TSE's real relationship to Poe.

I don't have my Eliot wrench and screw driver handy, so I can't
speak directly to the Poe issue, but the symbolist/Baudelairean
connection is available to me right now, and is obviously relevant.
If they learned some of their stuff from Poe (which nobody questions
so far as I know), then he is lurking in the background here:

      Baudelaire and LaForgue:
      ========================
      I think that from Baudelaire I learned first a precedent for the
      poetical possibilities, never developed by any poet writing in my
      own language, of the more sordid aspects of the modern metropolis,
      of the possibility of fusion between the sordidly realistic and the
      phangtasmagoric, the possibility of the juxtaposition of the matter
      of fact and the fantastic. From him, as from Laforgue, I learned
      that the sort of material that I had, the sort of experience that
      an adolescent had had, in an industrial city in America, could be
      the material for poetry; and that the source of new poetry might be
      found in what had been regarded hitherto as the impossible, the
      sterile, the intractably unpoetic. That, in fact, the business of
      the poet was to make poetry out of the unexplored resources of the
      unpoetical; that the poet, in fact, was committed by his profession
      to turn the unpoetical into poetry. A great poet can give a younger
      poet everything that he has to give him, in a very few lines. It may
      be that I am indebted to Baudelaire chiefly for half a dozen lines
      out of the whole of FLEURS DU MAL and that his significance for me
      is summed up in the lines:
        Fourmillante Cite, cite pleine dereves,
        Ou le spectre en plein jour raccroche le passant...
      I knew what THAT meant, because I had lived it before I knew that I
      wanted to turn it into verse on my own account.
      ------------------------------------------------------------ 
      Eliot, T.S. "What Dante Means to Me." TO CRITICIZE THE CRITIC.
         London: Faber, 1965. 

=======================================================================

      When Baudelaire's Satanism is dissociated from its less creditable
      paraphernalia, it amounts to a dim intuition of a part, but a very
      important part, of Christianity. Satanism itself, so far as not merely
      an affectation, was an attempt to get into Christianity by the back
      door. Genuine blasphemy, genuine in spirit and not merely verbal, is
      the product of a partial belief, and is as impossible to the com-
      plete athiest as to the perfect Christian.
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Eliot, T.S. "Baudelaire." SELECTED ESSAYS. London: Faber, 1963.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************

From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 12:48:33 1996
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Date: 	Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:39:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: James Joyce
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Totally off subject I know, and I apologize, but does anyone know of a 
James Joyce newsgroup or how I could find one? I have finally finished a 
WasteLand thesis and am now moving on to a Ulysses one. If anybody has an 
idea please let me know.

Christian Leplin
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 12:51:59 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:51:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Epochs, Roots, and Prairies
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Good Colleagues . . .

	Having detected a whiff of nascently righteous agitation in a 
recent post or two relating to matters of poetic and linguistic heritage 
on various islands and continents, one is put in mind of a particularly 
refreshing instance of "getting over onesself," in the sadly neglected 
work of Saskatchewan's Sweet Songstress, Sarah Binks.  Some scholars find 
Eliotic influences in Binks' work, notably, for instance,  in

				Time

My Son, there is a space between the ears
That must be filled, for better or for worse,
With wisdom, in the little span of years
That marks the way from go-cart to the hearse;
There is an element which men call time,
And who would seize it only grasps the tail,
And yet in passing flight it leaves behind
Its gobs of precious wisdom in this vale:
     And wisdom, Son, is what is taken home
To mark the point where whence divides from hence--
Time in itself can never fill the dome,
Future and past are but a change of tense;
Future and past are but before and after,
To mark the place where wisdom finds its mark--
And gripe and groan--so what!--or grin and laughter--
Wisdom divides the daylight from the dark.

				SB


	Others have seen in Sarah's oeuvre the still greater influence of 
Paul Hiebert (see his *Sarah Binks* Toronto: McClellan & Stewart, 1971.  
"A delightful volume of North American transmodernism . . .").

	(Let me hasten to add, for Binks admirers, that my net address
derives *not* eponymously from Sarah's devoted dog, but from my equally
faithful 2000TC.)

					PWS
					Washington, DC


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 15:04:24 1996
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From: "Peter Quigley" <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re[2]: Modern/contemporary?

where are the futurists and fascism aligned?
Peter Q

_______________________________________________________________________________

Subject: Re: Modern/contemporary?

From:    [log in to unmask] at Internet-Mail

Date:    2/12/96  9:46 AM



On Fri, 9 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> identify themselves as modernists? Seems to me, the only movements
> Pound committed himself to were Bel Esprit and Social Credit. (We won't
> mention Fascism, for that might implicate him with the Futurists.) He
> wouldn't even lend his name to direct involvement in imagism.


Vorticism?


> 'Twas a tale told by an Eliot, full of Pound and theory....
> 
> Peter
> *************************************************************
> *  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
> *            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
> *************************************************************

-------------------------------------
Danny Wyatt
[log in to unmask]
http://www.columbia.edu/~dmw22
Come forth, Lazarus!  And he came fifth and lost the job.



From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 17:42:36 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:40:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE and Matthew Arnold
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On Saturday, 10 Feb 1996, at 21:36:57,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>I think the lines come from Dover Beach by MA.  The phrase "the sea 
JC>of faith" became the title of a book tracing the decline of 
JC>Christianity in England following Darwin's revelations.

That name ("Dover Beach") definitely rings a bell (as it were).
I guess Arnold's work has become for me a long, withdawing
poignancy.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 18:04:04 1996
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 12 Feb 1996 16:02:13 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:02:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Epochs, Roots, and Prairies
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 12 Feb 1996, at 13:51:48,
thus spake Paul Sonnenburg:

PS>	Others have seen in Sarah's oeuvre the still greater influence of 
PS>Paul Hiebert (see his *Sarah Binks* Toronto: McClellan & Stewart, 1971.  
PS>"A delightful volume of North American transmodernism . . .").
Wasn't there a popular song once that went something to the effect
of SarahSarahBinks? 

PS>	(Let me hasten to add, for Binks admirers, that my net address
PS>derives *not* eponymously from Sarah's devoted dog, but from my equally
PS>faithful 2000TC.)
I suspect E. would be happy about it not being a dog. I've seen some
correspondence with Eliot, in which the corrsespondent said
his dogs had some reservation about Eliot's cats (or some such
thing). E.'s response was, "Your dogs have no right to an opinion."

Here's a trivia question:

Eliot and friends loved to try to one up each other with
fragments from Sir A.C. Doyle's Sherlock Holmes.

Anyone familiar with the block borrowing in
MURDER IN THE CATHEDRAL from one Holmes' adventures?
(btw, one title E. considered for the play was
 The Archbishop Murder Case -- or close thereto).

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 20:06:37 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:03:54 -0700 (MST)
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Could someone please advise me how to unsubscribe to this listserve?

Thanks,

Martha Ninneman
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 20:13:43 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:12:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Modern/contemporary?
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On Monday, 12 Feb 1996, at 14:03:30,
thus spake Danny Wyatt:

DW>where are the futurists and fascism aligned?
In Italy. Futurism was, as I remember it, very high on technology.
Pound and Percy Wyndham Lewis lambasted it for being way off base
as far as serious artistic development was concerned. Fascism was
the Siamese-twin of Germany's Nazism. Mussolini muscled it into
the nation of Italy. Pound joined and did radio-propaganda for them
during WWII. He apparently liked Mussolini's ideas about how artists
should be supported by the state (I'm on really thin ice here.
This is a recollection from a far lost past). When the USian soldiers
invaded and conquered Italy, they captured him and left him in
a cage in the central square of the town he was in. Their intention
was to execute him for treason, but the international uproar was too
great, so they put him in a mental sanatorium in Washington, DC.
(I think it was called St. Elizabeth's). He stayed there for some
20 or 25 years before he was released, again under great international
pressure. I've heard that when he was released and returned to
Italy, a reporter asked him when he hot out of the insane asylum.
His response was "I got out of the insane asylum when I left
America", or words to that effect.

DW>Vorticism?

Arrgh!!! Hard to explain, but very fascinating.  It was an attempt
by the above mentioned Pound and Lewis to start a counter art
movement, in response to Cubism, Dadaism &c on the continent.

Lewis was a truly outspoken, and often very unpleasant man.
He wrote a polemic called MEN WITHOUT ART in which he spared
no sensibilities, even among his strongest supporters, like
Eliot -- whom he called a Pseudoist. The article on Hemingway
accused same of being unable to create characters with executive
will and intelligence. H. was driven to violence as a result.

Lewis was a remarkable painter/novelist/prolific polemicist (see his
THE ARTIST AND THE ABSOLUTE, AMERICA AND COSMIC MAN, THE DIABOLICAL
PRINCIPLE and THE DITHYRAMBIC SPECTATOR). His portraits may well
turn out to be considered the best of the century. He was Canada's
official war painter in WWI, and because he may have some claim
to Canadian citizenship by birth, his SELF-CONDEMNED could come to
be seen as THE great Canadian novel.

A third member was a sculptor named Gaudier Bgerescka (sp?),
who died fighting in WW1.

The chief remnant of Vorticism is the serial (which came out
only twice), called BLAST. Pound, Eliot and Lewis, et al.
set out to shock sensibilities in these two gargantuan issues.
I believe parts of early versions of "The Hollow Men" made
it into BLAST. See David Jones' book on Eliot, in the appendices
at the back.

That at least is an attempt to sketch the broad outlines.
I'm sure there will be others who will delight to correct
and fill-in the weak spots.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 20:33:48 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:33:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: unsuscribe
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On Saturday, 10 Feb 1996, at 15:28:48,
thus spake JeanSebastien LaTour:

>> On Friday, 09 Feb 1996, at 18:45:42,
>> thus spake tosca:
>> t>Oh Peter, Peter.
>> t>
>> t>     A little kindness goes a long way.  Even TSE wasn't perfect!
>> t>
>> t>Jackie
>> On Sat, 10 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:
>> O Jackie, Jackie,
>> 
>> Are you sure Eliot wasn't perfect? Gosh, and all this time....
>> 
JL>
JL>If Eliot was human, he was not perfect. Anyway he was a good guy !

So true!

A penny for the good guy!

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 20:42:38 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:41:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Saturday, 10 Feb 1996, at 16:43:40,
thus spake Andrew Howald:

AH>Yes!  "Get over yourself" is the aptest comment, since what Peter (Cheers!)
AH> Montgomery betrays is a sort of solipsism.The fantastic foment of American
AH> poets like (examples at random) John Berryman, Frank O'Hara, John Cage,
AH> Allen Ginsburg, et al.--and he makes a haughty statement like that.
AH>Clearly he resides in some very British swamp on the island of Laputa.  

My. Touchy aren't we. Seems to me this post comes a day or two late.
I've already made my response to the post on which this was based. I
will let that response stand. If I get a chance I may well
throw in Eliot's own comments on the matter.

Speaking from the Great White North, the third largest coherent
territory in the world after Russia and China, and the first nation
to defeat the US in war:

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 21:02:52 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poe and TSE
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On Saturday, 10 Feb 1996, at 21:36:57,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>"O dark, dark, dark. They all go into the dark.
JC>The vacant interstellar spaces, the vacant into the vacant. etc"

JC>Or is this heterodox blasphemy?

Actually it looks to me like good clean fun.
However I think your creatures have more substance
than Eliot's. I think his were all just masks that
people wear. When the theatre goes dark, all the masks
come off and disappear. The actor leaves the theatre
and there are no traces left.

Probably useful in a discussion of Jung's shadow,
concerning the use of personas, or some such thing.
As for the weakness of the lines -- a matter of
taste I suppose. Some people have been pretty hard
on much of 4Q as being columniar prose.

Maybe Eliot was afraid to use in poetry, the work
of someone on which he couldn't get a good handel, or
even a bad mozart.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 21:05:49 1996
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From: [log in to unmask] (tosca)
Subject: Gaudier-Brzeska
X-Mailer: <Windows Eudora Version 2.0.2>

    
>A third member was a sculptor named Gaudier Bgerescka (sp?),
>who died fighting in WW1.
>
>The chief remnant of Vorticism is the serial (which came out
>only twice), called BLAST. Pound, Eliot and Lewis, et al.
>set out to shock sensibilities in these two gargantuan issues.
>I believe parts of early versions of "The Hollow Men" made
>it into BLAST. See David Jones' book on Eliot, in the appendices
>at the back.
>
>That at least is an attempt to sketch the broad outlines.
>I'm sure there will be others who will delight to correct
>and fill-in the weak spots.
>
>Cheers,
>Peter
>*************************************************************
>*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
>*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
>*************************************************************



----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Good evening all!

>Henri Gaudier called himself Gaudier-Brzeska.  Ezra Pound was quite taken
with the sculptor and upon waiting for the artist to appear at his home for
supper one evening, wrote a short poem.  "Vilanelle: the Psychological Hour',

     With middle-ageing care
          I had laid out just the right books...
     And now I watch, from the window,
               the rain, the wandering buses...

Brzeska couldn't come at the last minute!

Jacqueline
          


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 21:08:13 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:07:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Modernism
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Saturday, 10 Feb 1996, at 21:36:57,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>TSE thou shouldst be living at this moment.

Hey! I'll buy that! Besides which there's Auden
who became a USian. Sort of like a big player trade
in baseball.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 21:17:09 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Mark Laskowski)
Subject: Re: tse as banker

HELP!

        Fickle is my mind and email only makes it worse.  I'm on my second
day of having the messages from this listserve delivered to me in DIGEST
format and I regret it.  How do I undo that request.

        Thanks in advance.

Mark Laskowski
WPSX-TV/WPSU-FM
[log in to unmask]
workphone--814.863.2606
"... The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand ..."
from The Second Coming by William Butler Yeats


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 21:20:04 1996
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 12 Feb 1996 19:19:00 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:18:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Gaudier-Brzeska
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 12 Feb 1996, at 22:05:45,
thus spake tosca:

t>Good evening all!
t>
>>Henri Gaudier called himself Gaudier-Brzeska.  Ezra Pound was quite taken
t>with the sculptor and upon waiting for the artist to appear at his home for
t>supper one evening, wrote a short poem.  "Vilanelle: the Psychological Hour',
t>
t>     With middle-ageing care
t>          I had laid out just the right books...
t>     And now I watch, from the window,
t>               the rain, the wandering buses...
t>
t>Brzeska couldn't come at the last minute!

Pound always did take his epiphanies neat, didn't he.
Thanks for the info. I know next to nothing about this
chap or why and how he got into Vorticism. I do remember
Pound's passion to help the artists though.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 12 22:45:04 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 21:42:09 -0600
From: David Chinitz (remote) <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Digest

Greg,

Thanks for the explanation of "digest mode."

After scanning the TSE archives last week, I wondered if there was
any chance you might include with each month's archive what I now
know to be a "digest" of the whole month's messages.  This would be
in addition to, not in place of, what the archives contain now.

I think that an archive digest, if there is such a thing, would be
helpful for two reasons:  (1) it's faster and simpler to download one
big file from the internet than to download many small files one at a
time; and (2) an archive would be searchable, so if one wanted to
locate among January's messages that one odd mention of, say,
"Hilldrop," one could do it easily.

Best,
David Chinitz
Loyola University Chicago

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 00:24:54 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:15:22 -0600
From: David Chinitz (remote) <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Epochs, Roots, and Prairies

In re (sort of) Peter Montgomery's quiz question about "Murder in the
Cathedral":  according to E. Martin Browne (The Making of T. S.
Eliot's Plays), Eliot's working title was "Fear in the Way."  But I
was not aware that "one title E. considered for the play was The
Archbishop Murder Case -- or close thereto."  Can anyone confirm or
deny this?

David Chinitz
Loyola University Chicago

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 00:25:12 1996
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:36:22 -0600
From: David Chinitz (remote) <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re[2]: Modern/contemporary?

In response to Peter Montgomery's account of Pound's imprisonment:

>(I'm on really thin ice here.  This is a recollection from a far
lost past).
>When the USian soldiers invaded and conquered Italy, they captured
>him and left him in a cage in the central square of the town he was
in.
>Their intention was to execute him for treason, but the
international
>uproar was too great, so they put him in a mental sanatorium in
>Washington, DC.

This is thin ice indeed.  Pound's cage was in a detention camp on the
outskirts of Pisa, not in the central square.  I don't think anyone
knows that the troops had any other intention than to deliver him to
justice (intention is always tricky).  And there was certainly no
international uproar over Pound at this point.  Even artists then had
other, more pressing concerns.

Peter:  was this account meant to be just another "USian"
provocation?  Sorry if I fell for it:  I do think some of the
responses you've gotten have been "touchy."

Best tonic:  chapter called "The Cage" in Kenner's Pound Era.

P.S. Was Canada in fact a "nation" when we fought to a draw in 1812?

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 03:39:55 1996
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From: IDALGLEISH <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Tue, 13 Feb 1996 9:39:56 GMT
Subject:       Re: Epochs, Roots, and Prairies
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Date:          Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:15:22 -0600
Reply-to:      [log in to unmask]
From:          David Chinitz (remote) <[log in to unmask]>
To:            [log in to unmask]
Subject:       Epochs, Roots, and Prairies

In re (sort of) Peter Montgomery's quiz question about "Murder in the
Cathedral":  according to E. Martin Browne (The Making of T. S.
Eliot's Plays), Eliot's working title was "Fear in the Way."  But I
was not aware that "one title E. considered for the play was The
Archbishop Murder Case -- or close thereto."  Can anyone confirm or
deny this?


Dear David,

For Eliot's taste for crime fiction and the suggestion that early titles 
for the play were "Who Killed the Archbishop?" or 'The Archbishop Murder 
Case' see Herbert Howarth's book 'Notes on Some Figures Behind T.S 
Eliot', Chatto and Windus, London, 1965, p 312. Howarth doesn't quote 
his sources though. Hope this helps,

Cheers,

Ian Dalgleish.




From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 03:58:11 1996
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From: "FR Muller" <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:55:20 GMT2
Subject:       RCPT: Re: Epochs, Roots, and Prairies
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Confirmation of reading: your message -

    Date:    13 Feb 96  9:39
    To:      [log in to unmask]
    Subject: Re: Epochs, Roots, and Prairies

Was read at 11:55, 13 Feb 96.

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 07:09:38 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:13:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
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On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> Speaking from the Great White North, the third largest coherent
> territory in the world after Russia and China, and the first nation
> to defeat the US in war:

-- the *second* largest coherent territory in the world: Canada, 3.83
million square miles; China, 3.70 million square miles

















From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 08:33:08 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:39:52 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: James Joyce
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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	Yes. Contact [log in to unmask]
	She can guide you into her Joyce List.

						--John Gilgun 

On Mon, 12 Feb 1996 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Totally off subject I know, and I apologize, but does anyone know of a 
> James Joyce newsgroup or how I could find one? I have finally finished a 
> WasteLand thesis and am now moving on to a Ulysses one. If anybody has an 
> idea please let me know.
> 
> Christian Leplin
> 
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 08:33:17 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:32:44 -0500
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Modern/contemporary?

In a message dated 96-02-13 02:36:53 EST, you write:

>
>This is thin ice indeed.  Pound's cage was in a detention camp on the
>outskirts of Pisa, not in the central square.  I don't think anyone
>knows that the troops had any other intention than to deliver him to
>justice (intention is always tricky).

Pound was definately held in a detention camp. My father was one of the MP's
who was assigned to guard him. I asked my father if he's ever had a chance to
to talk with Pound, and if so, what he had to say. But my father, not being a
poetic sort of person, had not, and contented hmself with simply guarding
him.

---Michael Parker Smith
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 08:47:57 1996
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 8:47:55 -0600 (CST)
To: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: James Joyce Newsgroup


I'm a member of a quite lively James Joyce newsgroup:

	[log in to unmask]

Good Luck!!
Amy M. Alt
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 08:59:21 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:06:06 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: James Joyce
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	I was just given the following message. To get into the Joyce group--:

		[log in to unmask]

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:

> 	Yes. Contact [log in to unmask]
> 	She can guide you into her Joyce List.
> 
> 						--John Gilgun 
> 
> On Mon, 12 Feb 1996 [log in to unmask] wrote:
> 
> > Totally off subject I know, and I apologize, but does anyone know of a 
> > James Joyce newsgroup or how I could find one? I have finally finished a 
> > WasteLand thesis and am now moving on to a Ulysses one. If anybody has an 
> > idea please let me know.
> > 
> > Christian Leplin
> > 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 09:04:01 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:10:43 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: James Joyce Newsgroup
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	Since I am going to Ireland this summer, it would be advantageous 
to me to join the Joyce List. Can you add me to the List?

		[log in to unmask] 

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 
> I'm a member of a quite lively James Joyce newsgroup:
> 
> 	[log in to unmask]
> 
> Good Luck!!
> Amy M. Alt
> 
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 09:34:50 1996
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From: IDALGLEISH <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:15:57 GMT
Subject:       RCPT: Re: Epochs, Roots, and Prairies
Priority: normal
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Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

Confirmation of reading: your message -

    Date:    13 Feb 96  9:39
    To:       [log in to unmask]
    Subject:  Re: Epochs, Roots, and Prairies

Was read at 15:15, 13 Feb 1996.



From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 10:41:28 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:42:08 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: "Preludes" in BLAST, No. 2 (1915)

>>The chief remnant of Vorticism is the serial (which came out
>>only twice), called BLAST. Pound, Eliot and Lewis, et al.
>>set out to shock sensibilities in these two gargantuan issues.
>>I believe parts of early versions of "The Hollow Men" made
>>it into BLAST.

Actually, "Preludes" and "Rhapsody on a Windy Night"  appeared in Blast No.
2 (1915)--Eliot's first English publication of poetry.

Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 11:38:31 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 12:36:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Daytime Walk Rant <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Modern/contemporary?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> On Monday, 12 Feb 1996, at 14:03:30,
> thus spake Danny Wyatt:
> 
> DW>where are the futurists and fascism aligned?
> 
> DW>Vorticism?

Just to clear my name, the attributes above are wrong.  The only word I 
wrote was "Vorticism?" in response to Peter Montgomery saying that Pound 
never really alligned himself with any movement.

Pound did help to create (for what it was worth) Vorticism.  The 
Vorticist Manifesto in BLAST 1 is very entertaining and a good read for 
anyone who thinks Pound was never ironic in his vituperation.

To add a little information on Gaudier-Brzeska:  In BLAST 2, after
Gaudier-Brzeska's opinions on Vorticism ("Writte from the Trenches") is
his death notice.  It's headline is "MORT POUR LA PATRIE."  Hence
(probably) "Died some, pro patria," in _Hugh Selwyn Mauberley_.  I also 
read somewhere that Pound once commented on Gaudier-Brzeska's bright and 
flashing eyes, which became "Quick eyes gone under earth's lid."  There 
it is, for what it's worth.

Maybe we should CC this to the often silent EPOUND-L.

> Cheers,
> Peter
> *************************************************************
> *  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
> *            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
> *************************************************************

-------------------------------------
Danny Wyatt
[log in to unmask]
http://www.columbia.edu/~dmw22
Come forth, Lazarus!  And he came fifth and lost the job.



From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 12:10:11 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:54:33 -0600
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Willard Goodwin)
Subject: Abp Murder Case

David and Ian: See also Hugh Kenner, _The Invisible Poet: T.S. Eliot_
(1959), wherein, p. 282-283, one finds:

"That is why the Fourth Knight begins his reconstruction by installing us
in the world of Mrs. Christie: 'What I have to say may be put in the form
of a question: *Who killed the Archbishop?*' That is also why several lines
from a Sherlock Holmes story are dovetailed into Becket's dialogue with the
Second Tempter, and why his exchange with the Third Tempter opens with a
figure of rhetoric the late Rev. Ronald Knox christened the Sherlockismus
.... That is also why Eliot proposed calling the play 'The Archbishop Murder
Case,' a way of playing at Possum in the very citadel of Shakespeare and
Aeschylus."

Kenner names no source for the information about TSE's proposed title.

Will Goodwin, Humanities Research Center (Austin, TX)

>Date:          Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:15:22 -0600
>Reply-to:      [log in to unmask]
>From:          David Chinitz (remote) <[log in to unmask]>
>To:            [log in to unmask]
>Subject:       Epochs, Roots, and Prairies
>
>In re (sort of) Peter Montgomery's quiz question about "Murder in the
>Cathedral":  according to E. Martin Browne (The Making of T. S.
>Eliot's Plays), Eliot's working title was "Fear in the Way."  But I
>was not aware that "one title E. considered for the play was The
>Archbishop Murder Case -- or close thereto."  Can anyone confirm or
>deny this?
>
>
>Dear David,
>
>For Eliot's taste for crime fiction and the suggestion that early titles
>for the play were "Who Killed the Archbishop?" or 'The Archbishop Murder
>Case' see Herbert Howarth's book 'Notes on Some Figures Behind T.S
>Eliot', Chatto and Windus, London, 1965, p 312. Howarth doesn't quote
>his sources though. Hope this helps,
>
>Cheers,
>
>Ian Dalgleish.


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 12:59:46 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Modern/contemporary?
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 12 Feb 1996, at 23:36:22,
thus spake David Chinitz:

RE: Pound's impoumndment in Italy:
I certainly got a different account way back when.
Guess it's time for a bit of a review. Thanks for the
reference.

DC>Peter:  was this account meant to be just another "USian"
DC>provocation?  Sorry if I fell for it:  I do think some of the
DC>responses you've gotten have been "touchy."

Somebody did ask about fascism and how it all fitted in.
No one else answered so I did my best. Thanks for fixing it up.

Re: provocations and USian:

No. I was an exchange prof. in 1991 to a college in Pennsylvania.
I guess it was at the height of the political correctness
fad. Everyone tiptoed around the big "A" problem. They seemed to feel
it was very presumptuous for the United States to appropriate
the name of the whole hemisphere. It was their idea. I said not
a word, nor provoked it in any way. But I went along with it, and
became comfortable with it. So I continue to use it.

DC>P.S. Was Canada in fact a "nation" when we fought to a draw in 1812?
Actually Canada has never been one coherent people with a common
ethnic background, so the word "country" is more appropriate.
I forget the precise date for the original joining of upper and
Lower Canada, into what could be considered a coherent poltical/
administrative entity. Sometime in the 1700's, but it's not a date
we celebrate. 1867 is the date of the British North America Act
that set up Canada as the administrative enitity for all the
British Territories of North America. It was the political response
to a bill in the US senate which would have mandated the president
to "buy" the place. I don't know if that bill was ever passed. In
1949 Canada and some other Dominions were give almost total autonomy
in return for their war efforts. Canada refused the right to ammend
the BNA act, because no formula was agreeable. In 1982 Trudeau
patriated the right to amend the BNA act, and in fact instituted a
formal constitution and bill of rights. So pick your date as to what
the country was at which moment.

Win lose or draw, all Canadian history texts (that I know of) call it
a win for Canada. Some US texts do, and some don't. Take your pick.
I was being a little provocative with that, given some of the snotty
mail I've received. It's not a point I take seriously.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 13:04:28 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:03:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 13 Feb 1996, at 08:13:12,
thus spake Nicholas Treanor:

>> Speaking from the Great White North, the third largest coherent
>> territory in the world after Russia and China, and the first nation
>> to defeat the US in war:
NT>
NT>-- the *second* largest coherent territory in the world: Canada, 3.83
NT>million square miles; China, 3.70 million square miles

Seems like I can't get anything right. Must be my innate tendency
towards modesty. ;>

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 13:24:02 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:21:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Abp Murder Case
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 13 Feb 1996, at 11:54:33,
thus spake Willard Goodwin:

WG>of a question: *Who killed the Archbishop?*' That is also why several lines
WG>from a Sherlock Holmes story are dovetailed into Becket's dialogue with the
WG>Second Tempter.

I think that's close enough, too give the answer.

One needs not a source reference for the borrowed words of the inter-
change with the second temptor. The resemblance is obvious. The allusion
is to The Musgrave Ritual from the story of the same name. I
believe I read it first in E. M. Browne's work.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 13:43:04 1996
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 id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Tue,
 13 Feb 1996 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:37:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Abp Murder Case
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 13 Feb 1996, at 11:21:47,
thus spake Peter Montgomery:

PM>One needs not a source reference for the borrowed words of the inter-
PM>change with the second temptor. The resemblance is obvious. The allusion
PM>is to The Musgrave Ritual from the story of the same name. I
PM>believe I read it first in E. M. Browne's work.

On further thought, it is worth recalling that The Musgrave Ritual
(that is, the sequence of words, not the story as a whole),
was a map to the burial place of Chas. I's crown. Chas I was an
important figure for Eliot. Mentioned in 4Q as the broken king.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 14:49:01 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:48:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Assignment.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9602130718.A4049-0100000@freenet>
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I can't believe I'm rising to the bait again, but I missed PM's
original post (I've taken to just deleting them from the index)
but is this PM:

> On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:
> 
> > Speaking from the Great White North, the third largest coherent
> > territory in the world after Russia and China, and the first nation
> > to defeat the US in war:

The same PM who directed this volley at me on Feb 10th

PM: Looks to me like you're confusing speech with nationalism
PM: (that dead hairball of the 19th century)

We'll give you 1812 because we've come so far from there...I was
shocked to learn Canada was a British colony up until 1982...I see
on Canadian TV (which we get a lot of here in Buffalo...I do like
IMPRINT on TVO) that Canadians are having trouble with their national
identity.  Now I understand why...& the uproar over taking the
queen's picture off something to do with the RCMP...

& why PM insists on the best is British.  I understand now...

BTW, America was named after an Italian mapmaker WAY before any one
but the Natives were here.  Our founding fathers can be faulted for
a lack of imagination (united states...) but the rest was beyond
(or before) us...I'm surprised the Brits didn't rename it.  

Virginia
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 15:06:22 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:03:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Pound's Incarceration
To: [log in to unmask]
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On this subject, see Torrey, E.Fuller. "The Protection of Ezra Pound."
PSYCHOLOGY TODAY 15.11 (November 1981): 57-66.

It's all there. Most of my remarks are accurate (except for the public
square bit). He was incarcerated in an army camp near Pisa for six
months. The command from HQ was to "'Exercise utmost security measures
to prevent escape or suicide.' For three weeks Pound was confined to
a small cage in a yard with little protection from sun or rain, before
he was moved to a tent."

The main thesis is that insanity was used as a protecion. Pound
wasn't really insane at all. The pressure to do so was brought
by a group of friends, so that Pound wouldn't stand trial for treason.
Nineteen charges of treason were laid against Pound. The main instru-
ment of his protection was one Dr. Winfred Overholser. 

There are samples of Pound's treasonous broadcasts -- not nice at all.
There are photos, including one of Pound under escort by federal
agents.

His number was 58,102,and he was visited by the likes of
MacLeish, Eliot, W.C.Williams, cummings,Aiken, Lowell,Tate, Mencken,
Spender, T. Wilder, M. Moore, McLuhan, K.A.Porter, Alice Roosevelt
Longworth, and quite regularly by Edith Hamiltomn to discuss Greek
drama.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 15:12:10 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:12:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Ooops!
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
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I apologize for all the off-topic stuff....but I'm interested in the
discussion of futurism-vorticism-fascism...I'm taking a course, ART
BETWEEN THE WORLD WARS & we are on Constructivism (one of my favorite
things about the artists in these various movements is that as soon
as they thought of a new -ism, they'd write a manifesto.  The ones
for DADA are a hoot!)  Fascism came up today in class, somehow attached
to DADA.  Is this true?  Fascism would seem to come more naturally
from the more controlled -isms like belle esprit....I'm thinking of
the architecture, which is so rigid and reductive.

I do know that Manietti, one of the leading futurists, was a concrete
poet & had an affect on poetry movements in NYC around the time of
the (in)famous armory shows (duchamp et al)

Manetti influenced one of my favorite modernist poets: Mina Loy.
(btw.....& I in no way endorse this remark.......but an instructor
defined modernism as ULYSSES & post-mod as FINNEGAN'S WAKE....those
tags are just whizzing past, aren't they?)

Virginia
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 15:26:37 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:21:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:Canada (was Re[2]: Modern/contemporary?)
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hey, I guess that a tse-list is hardly the place to be discussing
Canada's origins, but the recent post by Peter has so badly presented
the facts that lists members who might rely on it for information 
deserve to hear the truth.

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> I forget the precise date for the original joining of upper and
> Lower Canada, into what could be considered a coherent poltical/
> administrative entity. Sometime in the 1700's, but it's not a date
> we celebrate. 

In 1791 those parts of British North America that we associate with
Ontario and Quebec were joined into a British colony, which was given
the name Canada.  It did not include any other of the several British 
colonies in North America which have since joined Canada.

> 1867 is the date of the British North America Act
> that set up Canada as the administrative enitity for all the
> British Territories of North America. 

Not true.  The BNA Act joined what had been Canada (in 1791) with two
other British colonies, New Bruswick and Nova Scotia, into a new version
of Canada, with four "provinces" and a federal government which enjoyed
increased "home rule" but left Canada still a British colony with little
or no control over foreign policy, etc. 

> In 1949 Canada and some other Dominions were give almost total autonomy
> in return for their war efforts. 

Such nonsense.  Canada (which had gradually added more and more of
Britain's North American colonies to its territory) had become an
independent country by 1931, with membership in the so-called British
Commonwealth of Nations.  In 1939, when Britain declared war on Germany,
it required a session of the Canadian parliament to bring Canada into the
war, which didn't take place until a week after Britain had been at war.
In December, 1941, following Pearl Harbour, Canada was the first country
in the world to declare war on Japan, before Britain, and even before the
United States (the Canadian parliament was in session at the time; in the
States, F.D.R. had to call congress into session).  When the United
Nations was formed in 1946, Canada was a founding member.  I mention these
details to illustrate the absurdity of the 1949 statement quoted above. 

> Win lose or draw, all Canadian history texts (that I know of) call it
> a win for Canada. 

Having received nearly all my education in Canadian primary, secondary,
and post-secondary schools, and having taught history at the high school 
level, I have never even heard of the War of 1812 being called a war between
Canada and the United States.  Regardless of who won or lost the war,
it was a war between Britain and the U.S., only part of which took place 
in Canada.

peace,

Nick.








From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 15:51:34 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:52:14 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: Re: Pound's Incarceration & Torrey's Interpretation

>On this subject, see Torrey, E.Fuller. "The Protection of Ezra Pound."
>PSYCHOLOGY TODAY 15.11 (November 1981): 57-66.
>

This is also a book:
>The roots of treason : Ezra Pound and the secret of St.
Elizabeths  (McGraw-Hill 1984)

Personally, I don't buy his thesis that Pound was "sane" and that the
doctors at St. Elizabeths, paticularly the head, perjured themselves.

What is "sane"?  Hard to say of course, so Torrey's argument is just not
convining to me.  My feeling is that Pound was not sufficiently sane to
understand the charges of treason against him.  Tim Materer

PS.  Torrey has written a bunch of fine books, one in 88 for ex/ on the
homeless.  Roots is admirable for the way it raised an important issue, but
it's off base.

Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 15:56:27 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:55:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Re:Canada (was Re[2]: Modern/contemporary?)
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Tuesday, 13 Feb 1996, at 16:21:17,
thus spake Nicholas Treanor:

NT>Canada and the United States.  Regardless of who won or lost the war,
NT>it was a war between Britain and the U.S., only part of which took place 
NT>in Canada.

Fair enough. I suppose I could have at that on one or two details,
but to no good end. At least the people who don't like my style
will be feeling good.

I guess if we can't shake loose the people who know their stuff on
Eliot, we can at least do it on Canadian history.

BTW, just to make this relevant to the list, Eliot did pass
through Quebec on his way to give his 1933 lectures at Harvard.
As I remember, he remarked about the desolation of the human
struggle against nature.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 16:08:07 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:05:59 EST
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Subject: Re: Assignment.

From:	NAME: Ken Armstrong                 
	FUNC: Adult Learning                  
	TEL: (614) 593-2895                   <ARMSTRONG@A1@LANCE>
To:	MX%"[log in to unmask]"@OUVAX@MRGATE@OUVAX

    This list, and Peter Montgomery's posts in particular, have been an 
    enjoyable experience for me. I suggest that list members who wish to 
    answer good-natured ribbing (in which the poster is as willing to chide 
    himself as someone else) with might take a deep breath and holster 
    those ill-tempered fingers.
     
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 16:46:15 1996
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	id RAA06969; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:45:41 -0500
Date: 13 Feb 96 17:32:57 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Are TSE's appropriated or are they born?
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

>God! first they appropriate Eliot, now Yeats.  Who will the Americans
>claim next?
>
Well, he was born of old colonial stock and raised in the US  and all of his
blood relatives were American - one can argue oneself blind about whether or not
he "belongs" to his native culture or his adopted culture (he seems to have felt
that he was going "home" to Britain - where his ancestors came from), however
there is some basis to the US claim.  As for Yeats, well that does look like
appropriation, doesn't it?  

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 16:46:17 1996
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Date: 13 Feb 96 17:32:42 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

I seem to be getting two or more copies of every message posted in this forum.
Is it possible I accidentally got subscribed more than once?  Is there another
explanation?

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 16:46:28 1996
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Date: 13 Feb 96 17:32:37 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: poor old formulated tse
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

On February 9, Peter Montgomery wrote:

<That's the true nature of his hell, he's been permanently classified.
No way out. Like being destined to be a classified ad for all
eternity.

Thanks for the comment. I've received a couple of others. There seems
to be some sympathy for the position.>

(Pardon me if I'm not doing this right, I'm a bit new to this medium)

How well you put it.  I have a big problem with the way he's often classified,
however I wonder if he didn't ask for it in a way because that was the way he
thought of himself & so projected his own self-image that so many people bought
into.  I'm thinking of that little poem that went something like this:

"How unpleasant to meet Mr. Eliot,
With features of clerical cut,
And his brow so grim
And his mouth so prim
And his conversation so nicely
Restricted to what precisely
And if, and perhaps, and but
How unpleasant to meet Mr. Eliot,
whether his mouth be open or shut"

Part of a series of small poems, I forget what he called the set of them.

Kind of a sad way to see oneself.



From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 16:49:21 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:53:16 +0000
To: [log in to unmask]
From: Christine <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Peter, Peter, punkin' eater...

At 05:05 PM 2/13/96 EST, you wrote:
>From:	NAME: Ken Armstrong                 
>	FUNC: Adult Learning                  
>	TEL: (614) 593-2895                   <ARMSTRONG@A1@LANCE>
>To:	MX%"[log in to unmask]"@OUVAX@MRGATE@OUVAX
>
>    This list, and Peter Montgomery's posts in particular, have been an 
>    enjoyable experience for me. I suggest that list members who wish to 
>    answer good-natured ribbing (in which the poster is as willing to chide 
>    himself as someone else) with might take a deep breath and holster 
>    those ill-tempered fingers.
>     
A different opinion:  Peter Montgomery has some very insightful things to
say.  Alas, the quantity of puffed-up posturing that one must wade through
in order to reach those insights is excessive.  His personal communications
to me were, for the most part, quite cordial.  He may just be enamored of
the spectacle.  


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 16:52:48 1996
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:52:22 -0600 (CST)
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Pound's Incarceration

A brief follow-up to this thread on Pound's incarceration.  The Torrey
thesis, enlarged on in his book on Pound at St. Elizabeths, makes the
most vehement case for a "conspiracy" of lawyers, writers, friends,
and psychiatrists to wrap Pound in the cloak of madness and spirit him
out of his legal and moral difficulties, and Torrey is not alone in
taking this view.  But it is still the case that three of the four
psychiatrists who testified at Pound's sanity hearing were doctors
chosen by the government, and they and the jury felt that Pound was
not competent to defend himself against the charges or to understand
fully the case that was being made against him.  This was the position
of Julien Cornell, Pound's attorney--a man of principle who had taken
on many cases involving civil liberties and conscientious objection--
and he persisted in this position for the balance of his life (as his
book, *The Trial of Ezra Pound*, shows).

I am not talking here about the moral turpitude of Pound's broadcasts,
which seems to me beyond dispute.  But I think a real case can be (and
was successfully) made that Pound was mentally unfit to stand trial,
which is, legally and semantically perhaps, a different matter from his
being "insane" in some more abstract sense.  I am completing the job
of editing Pound's correspondence with his wife, Dorothy Shakespear,
from the time of his capture by partisans in May 1945 to Dorothy's
arrival in Washington, D.C., in July 1946.  All the research I have
done suggests to me that, although Pound could discuss literary and
other subjects with charm and lucidity, he grew very irrational and/or
confused on the subject of politics and his activities in Italy.
Cornell noted this cleavage in his mind and made it the basis for his
incompetency plea.

But let's keep discussing this; I'm interested in other views.
Incidentally, the letters I mentioned, which I am co-editing with
Omar Pound, number approximately 150, and the edition is under
contract at Oxford UP (New York and Oxford).

Sincerely,
Robert Spoo
Editor, *James Joyce Quarterly*
University of Tulsa
<[log in to unmask]>
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 17:15:30 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:13:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: poor old formulated tse
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 13 Feb 1996, at 17:32:37,
thus spake Florentia Scott:

>>On February 9, Peter Montgomery wrote:
PM>RE: Prufrock
PM>That's the true nature of his hell, he's been permanently classified.
PM>No way out. Like being destined to be a classified ad for all
PM>eternity.

FS>How well you put it.I have a big problem with the way he's often classified
FS>however I wonder if he didn't ask for it in a way because that was the way
FS>he thought of himself & so projected his own self-image that so many people
FS>bought into.
FS>
FS>Kind of a sad way to see oneself.

I think E. was being somewhat facetious about himself. People
projected so much at him (he was the Elvis/Beatles of his day),
that I think he led them on a bit. He wasn't called Ol' Possum
for nothing. He knew very well the value and role of wearing
a mask. It gave him some public protection.

It was definitely Vivian who was to be pitied. I could be-
lieve she was a female equivalent of Prufrock.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 18:40:44 1996
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Date:        Tue, 13 Feb 1996 18:40:19 CST
From: "Edwards, Martha" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound's Incarceration
X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V4.1.0
In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:03:32 CST

While the insanity plea did keep Pound fr. standing trial for treason
(and possibly being executed), nevertheless, he WAS half-a-bubble-off-
plumb!  His behavior was so excentric throughout his life that his
insanity might come close to blending into his usual behavior.
Nevertheless, evidence from his behavior just before the war, the radio
broadcasts (not merely unpleasant but incoherent -- and I like the
Cantos), his beahvior in Pisa (which admittedly contributed to his
mental state), the breakdown in Pisa, his dancing in the aisles of the
commercial plane that took him back to the US, and many other bits of
evidence show a person who was . . . well, insane.

Barry (not Martha) Edwards
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 20:10:01 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 18:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Pound's Incarceration
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 13 Feb 1996, at 16:52:22,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

E>A brief follow-up to this thread on Pound's incarceration.  The Torrey
E>thesis, enlarged on in his book on Pound at St. Elizabeths, makes the
E>most vehement case for a "conspiracy" of lawyers, writers, friends,
E>and psychiatrists to wrap Pound in the cloak of madness and spirit him
E>out of his legal and moral difficulties, and Torrey is not alone in
E>taking this view.
..................................................

E>But let's keep discussing this; I'm interested in other views.
E>Incidentally, the letters I mentioned, which I am co-editing with
E>Omar Pound, number approximately 150, and the edition is under
E>contract at Oxford UP (New York and Oxford).

As I said to start with, I'm on very thin ice on this one.
I don't have a position for or against Torrey's theory,
although on the surface, his argument seems pretty cogent.
What I do like about his article is the degree to which
it is packed with valuable and interesting information.
Can't say I've seen a tighter, more coherent presentation
of the information, but it's just not a subject I've persued.

As I remember it, Pound had a rather uncermonious termination
of employment at some educational institute in the US early
in his career, for providing succour to a fellow human caught
in the elements. Did that help to generate some of his anti-u.s.
feeling?

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 20:21:51 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 21:14:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Assignment.
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tue, 13 Feb 1996 Ken Armstrong wrote:

>	I suggest that list members who wish to answer good-natured
>ribbing . . . take a deep breath and holster those ill-tempered fingers.

	Concur.  For gratuitous hostility and simple incivility we have
the morning newspapers.  Here we ought to anticipate a convocation of
collegial discourse in generosity of spirit and commonality of purpose.

	If you feel absolutely compelled to indulge your rancor, do two
messages: send the indulgently mean one solely to Peter's address and a
civil one for the rest of the list.  Think of it as an editing challenge. 

	Or better yet, follow TSE's advice and toss the impetuously
unpleasant note on the grate.

					PWS
					Washington, DC

	

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 20:28:05 1996
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I would like to unsubscribe from this list.
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 21:30:59 1996
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From: Nicholas Treanor <[log in to unmask]>
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On 13 Feb 1996, Florentia Scott wrote:

> I seem to be getting two or more copies of every message posted in this forum.
> Is it possible I accidentally got subscribed more than once?  Is there another
> explanation?

Yes, Florentia, there is another explanation.  The TSE listserver
sends out messages with a From: and a Reply to: in its header.  If a list
member posts a response to such a message, and sends it to Reply to:  and
if such member also types "Yes" when asked whether the message is to be
sent "to all recipients", it will automatically be sent to the tse list
members in both cases.  So, we get it twice. 

The trick is to send one's response to the From: address with a copy to
all recipients, OR to the Reply to: address, with NO copy to all recipients.

Nick.
















From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 21:41:56 1996
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 21:41:53 -0600 (CST)
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: poor old formulated tse


Peter,                                                         
I am very confused and uncomfortable with your comment about Vivian being a
"female equivalent of Prufrock."  Could you please explain how you see
Vivian in this role and what biographical sources have brought you to this
opinion?

Thanks, 
Amy M. Alt
Univ of Tulsa
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 13 22:12:39 1996
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 13 Feb 1996 20:11:25 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:11:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: poor old formulated tse
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 13 Feb 1996, at 21:41:53,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

A>I am very confused and uncomfortable with your comment about Vivian being a
A>"female equivalent of Prufrock."  Could you please explain how you see
A>Vivian in this role and what biographical sources have brought you to this
A>opinion?

I made my statement highly conditional. I said I could believe
she was a female equivalent. I don't think anyone knows for
sure. It seems she had some kind of nervous disorder. I've
read about it in a number of different places but the source
that comes most immediately to mind is a video interview
with Eliot's sister that I caught on PBS quite some years
ago. I believe it was called THE MYSTERIOUS MR. ELIOT. The
sister went into a lot of detail about how Vivian would act
very paranoid and suspicious about the least little thing,
like offering her a piece of cake, or some such thing.
She was a dancer, and was very highly strung. Eliot eventually
had to seek a separation from her, and she was institutional-
ised. In part his reason for going to Harvard in 1933 was
to be absent from her, and to provide the opportunity for
him to get grounded again.

The context of my comment was the correspondent's comment
that Eliot's Prufrock-like self-stereotype was sad. It seemed
to me that what was really pitiable, for both Eliot and
Vivian was the sadness of her condition. So I was making
a highly qualified guess based on what I am sure is common
knowledge about Vivian. I must confess to some puzzlement
at why you would find this so bothersome.

If I get a chance, when I get home I will see if I can give
you a print citation. Perhaps someone else on the list
can help.

My doctoral supervisor, Sheila Watson (novelist and P.
Wyndham Lewis scholar of the first order), who was a
pretty avid student of the Bloomsburys, was sure Vivian
had been seduced by Bertrand Russell, and that that was
what drove her around the bend. I've never seen anything
to confirm it, myself.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 00:13:20 1996
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:12:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: In Memoriam Vivienne Haigh Eliot (was poor old formulated TSE)
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 13 Feb 1996, at 21:41:53,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

A>I am very confused and uncomfortable with your comment about Vivian being a
A>"female equivalent of Prufrock."  Could you please explain how you see
A>Vivian in this role and what biographical sources have brought you to this
A>opinion?

First, my apologoies to Vivienne for not remembering the proper
spelling of her name.

Secondly, Robert Sencourt's T.S. ELIOT: A MEMOIR. NY: Dodd, Mead,
    1971) has a lot of detail about Vivienne. See the index for
    a an impressive set of page numbers on her -- under
    Eliot, Vivienne Haigh. Page 62 mentions both her illness
    AND the affair with Russell!!!! There are ample footnotes
    to Russell's letters. It seems that Russell had the key to
    her personality in terms of getting her to let go of her
    hang-ups. So my thesis supervisor wins again. Unless Russell's
    letters can't be trusted.

    On p. 174 Sencourt raises the possibility of a connection
    between Eliot's marriage and THE FAMILY REUNION. Apparently
    Eliot confessed to result that he (Eliot) felt responsible
    for the wreaking of Vivienne's happiness.

    There is a plate in the centre photos, of Eliot happily
    standing by Virginia Woolf, with poor little subdued
    Vivienne standing meekly off to the side.

    The movie TOM AND VIV never made it to our humble little
    city (at least that I was ever able to determine), so I
    can't comment on it one way or another. I have heard that
    it took some liberties with the reality, but I just don't
    know. Anyone know if it has been released as a video??

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 00:36:46 1996
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 00:36:31 -0600
Subject: Re: Digest
Reply-to: Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23)

David Chinitz asks:
> After scanning the TSE archives last week, I wondered if there was
> any chance you might include with each month's archive what I now
> know to be a "digest" of the whole month's messages.  This would be
> in addition to, not in place of, what the archives contain now.
> 
David (et al.)--

Each month of the list's messages in the archive is already stored as a single 
file, from which the gopher server extracts particular messages.  If you want 
to download a whole month, you can do so by anonymous ftp.  Point your ftp 
client at ftp.missouri.edu, log in as "anonymous" (without the quotes), and 
give your full e-mail address as your password.  Once connected, change to the 
directory /pub/archives/lists/pub/tse.  The monthly archives have filenames of 
the form tse.log9511 (for Nov 95), tse.log9512, etc.

If you're using a web browser as your ftp client, the URL is:

     ftp://ftp.missouri.edu/pub/archives/lists/pub/tse/

Have fun!  Let me know if you encounter any problems.

Regards,

Greg Foster



***************************************************************************
Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]> * http://www.missouri.edu/~enggf/
Coordinator, "Turbo" English Sections * Listowner, TSE, the T.S.Eliot List
***************************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 01:12:35 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 02:20:39 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: In Memoriam Vivienne Haigh Eliot (was poor old formulated TSE)

Yes, Tom and Viv has been released on video, and I have seen it.  It wasn't
great.  At times it seemed a bit overdone, as though they based the
screenplay on "A Game of Chess."  I believe they even have Dafoe (Eliot)
saying some lines from The Waste Land in conversation.  That bothered me.

[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 01:35:32 1996
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Date: 14 Feb 96 00:59:28 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Vivienne the female Prufrock
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

On February 13, Peter Montgomery wrote:

PM<I think E. was being somewhat facetious about himself. People
projected so much at him (he was the Elvis/Beatles of his day),
that I think he led them on a bit. He wasn't called Ol' Possum
for nothing. He knew very well the value and role of wearing
a mask. It gave him some public protection..>

Well I can believe that, although the thought of TSE being mobbed by screaming
teenage girls kind of strikes my funny bone.  

PM<It was definitely Vivian who was to be pitied. I could be-
lieve she was a female equivalent of Prufrock.>

Vivian (wasn't it spelled Vivienne?) didn't have a very happy life, but I get
the feeling she gave as good as she got.  I don't really buy the "TSE did it to
her" theory.  As for a female Prufrock, that's a new one on me.  I always
thought of Prufrock as a bit of a self-portrait, combined with a portrait of a
certain type of character Eliot thought typical of his milieu that he identified
with in some ways.

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 01:35:34 1996
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Date: 14 Feb 96 00:59:42 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: duplicate messages
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

Nicholas Treanor wrote:

<The TSE listserver
sends out messages with a From: and a Reply to: in its header.  If a list
member posts a response to such a message, and sends it to Reply to:  and
if such member also types "Yes" when asked whether the message is to be
sent "to all recipients", it will automatically be sent to the tse list
members in both cases.  So, we get it twice. 

The trick is to send one's response to the From: address with a copy to
all recipients, OR to the Reply to: address, with NO copy to all recipients>

I don't get any of those options, perhaps because I'm using Compuserve.  I
answered a couple of postings by hitting my "reply" option, then found out
through these people's subsequentpostings, that I had replied "off list" or some
such thing, and they alone had gotten the reply - it hadn't gone on to the list.
So in posting these messages I go into my "create mail" and send the message to
the list server, so I seem to be posting on the list now.  I don't seem to have
an option to send to all list recipients when I reply.  

Anyhow, now I know why I'm getting duplicates (sometimes three and four copies)
of some messages.  Thanks for the clarification.

Florentia

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 05:22:58 1996
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From: "Mr M.S. Tapela, Primary Education" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  University of Botswana
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:25:33 GMT+2
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Subject:       RCPT: Re: Epochs, Roots, and Prairies
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Confirmation of reading: your message -

    Date:    13 Feb 96  9:39
    To:      [log in to unmask]
    Subject: Re: Epochs, Roots, and Prairies

Was read at 12:25, 14 Feb 96.

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 06:49:34 1996
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 14 Feb 1996 04:48:56 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 04:48:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vivienne the female Prufrock
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Wednesday, 14 Feb 1996, at 00:59:28,
thus spake Florentia Scott:

FS>Well I can believe that, although the thought of TSE being
FS>mobbed by screaming teenage girls kind of strikes my funny
FS>bone. 

His popularity was such that it really did force him to be
reculsive and standoffish, in order to have some privacy.
I never had the privilege of attending one of his readings,
but I gather they could be pretty heady events.

PM<It was definitely Vivian who was to be pitied. I could be
>lieve she was a female equivalent of Prufrock.>

FS>Vivian (wasn't it spelled Vivienne?) didn't have a very happy
FS>life, but I get the feeling she gave as good as she got.  I
FS>don't really buy the "TSE did it to her" theory.  As for a
FS>female Prufrock, that's a new one on me.  I always thought of
FS>Prufrock as a bit of a self-portrait, combined with a portrait
FS>of a certain type of character Eliot thought typical of his
FS>milieu that he identified with in some ways.

The externals of Prufrock seem to match Eliot to some extent,
depending on whether he saw himself as thin, balding,growing
old and past his prime, but I was thinking of the internal 
conflicts, the personal hell, the need to escape, the need
to be distracted. Wether ELiot "did it to her" or not, Sencourt
makes a good case for their personalities being a mis-match.
She needed something he could supply her with, so it is
plausible that she dreamed of alternatives, and that she felt
trapped.

Again, I said, "I could believe", based on the torture that
she seems to have gone through. I take the epigraph quite
seriously.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 07:01:10 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 08:01:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Vivienne the female Prufrock
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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A couple of things....In a class last semester, the students hearing
Eliot read "Prufrock" for the first time were disappointed that his
inflections were so flat and measured (as if he did not want to give
any meaning simply by the tone of his voice.)  So people still wish
for him to dazzle (or at least set something on fire). 

Secondly, the idea that Vivienne 'gave as good as she got' is somewhat
insensitive.  She did have some kind of mental disorder & what Eliot
later regretted was his inability to help her (which is common to those
whose loved ones are mentally ill).  But she was instrumental in the
writing of The Waste Land (though the case made that she actually wrote
some of it has no proof whatsoever).  Eliot always needed editing,
which he got from Pound et al.  But editing is not creating.  Vivienne
is a lot like Zelda to F. Scott Fitzgerald. Both has literary yearnings
(not to suggest that those who write are crazy ;-)  Essentially bookish
men drawn to exciting women.  

Thoughts?
Virginia
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 09:17:04 1996
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From: James F Loucks <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Tom and Viv
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:16:59 -0500 (EST)
Cc: [log in to unmask]
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Tom called Viv Vivienne when he was exasperated with her. Woolf's diaries spell
it both ways --Vivien earlier, then Vivienne later on.  Regarding the role of 
Russell: he was quite kind to the Eliots early on, for his own reasons, even 
lending them money and providing shelter. The word got out that Russell had 
seduced her when the Eliots were newlyweds (much later, Graham Greene was 
telling his friends about this). Russell's letters to Ottoline Morrell never 
flatly admit to a seduction, but BR's intense interest in both Eliots is 
evident, and he is quite intrigued about Viv. Russell saw his stay in prison 
(for pacifist activities) as a way to break from Viv (much to his relief). 
Russell once took Viv to a seaside resort for her health (without Tom); TSE 
joined them days later, then thanked BR for caring for Viv! But by 1933, TSE 
could write to Ottoline: He [Russell] has done Evil [to Viv]. Evidently 
Russell, who seems to have liked playing shrink, diagnosed Viv as mentally ill,
for TSE wrote Russell that he [Russell] had been right on that score. Russell
was legendary for his lust, and it is not surprising that he should zero in on 
a bad marriage in which one partner was his former grad student and protege 
(rather). The TSE-Russell relationship more than cooled, and in later life 
Russell (very) negatively assessed TSE's character when responding to a letter 
asking him what he thought of TSE.
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 09:27:04 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:27:44 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: About: Vivien(ne) Haigh Wood // Tom and Viv Eliot

I believe that either Vivienne or Vivien is correct--spelled with one "N"
in most sources. I note that in Valerie Eliot's Vol I of Eliot's letters,
she is indexed Vivien(ne) on 628.

Yes, Tom and Viv is on Video--only a buck at the local supermarket, but I
know I couldn't bear to watch it.

TimM


Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 09:32:25 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:33:05 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: "Game of Chess" in Tom and Viv

Count Chocula says of Tom and Viv: At times it seemed a bit overdone, as
though they based the screenplay on "A Game of Chess."  I believe they even
have Dafoe (Eliot)
>saying some lines from The Waste Land in conversation.

Actually, that's probably appropriate.  Ezra Pound wrote "too photographic"
 or something similar on the WL typescript (reproduced in V. Eliot's
edition) by which he apparently meant the dialogue about "I never know what
you are thinking," "I think we are in rat's alley," "What is the wind
doing?" "Nothing again nothing," etc., seemed to come from his domestic
life.   TimM

Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 10:12:01 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:11:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: "Assignment," Ramifications of 
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	As Mr. Gilgun's recent  "Assignment" thread spun out, some 
members were moved to recommend contemporaneous poets whose work they 
presumably find worthy of concentrated study.  Because those suggestions 
arose from only a few readers, rather as a spontaneous sidebar to a 
primary thread than part of the inquiry itself, one could hardly discern 
any clear patterns of current "taste."

	Nonetheless I was struck by the absence from those shortlists of 
both James Merrill and Geoffrey Hill, poets whose work I should think 
would appeal to Eliot enthusiasts.  Not to turn our forum into a survey 
mechanism, I would nonetheless very much enjoy knowing if either of these 
two artists finds any consensus of esteem among TSE list subscribers.

					PWS
					Washington, DC
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 11:10:45 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:26:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Eliot as Popular Figure
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On 14 Feb 1996, Florentia Scott wrote:

> Well I can believe that, although the thought of TSE being mobbed by screaming
> teenage girls kind of strikes my funny bone.  

	Several of the biographical commentators describe Eliot's 
continuing bemusement at his popularity, especially with "the young."
Both Ackroyd and Levy, inter alia, describe TSE's 1956 experience:

	"On 30 April at the Univeristy of Minnesota, at Minneapolis, 14,000 
people gathered in a baseball stadium to hear Eliot discourse on 'The 
Frontiers of Criticism': 'I felt,' he said, 'like a very small bull 
walking into an enormous arena.'" (Ackroyd, p. 317.)

					PWS
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 11:12:13 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:11:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
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I have been reading Merrill, in conjunction with my grad work in
poets & paintings (poems on paintings, poets on painters/paintings...
there's a lot to read!) & I'm interested in Paul's comments on
Merrill's connection to TSE...I'm reading RECITATIVE and would
appreciate your going further into Merrill's debt.

Thanks!
Virginia
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 11:39:31 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:46:02 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: "Game of Chess" in Tom and Viv

>Count Chocula says of Tom and Viv: At times it seemed a bit overdone, as
>though they based the screenplay on "A Game of Chess."  I believe they even
>have Dafoe (Eliot)
>>saying some lines from The Waste Land in conversation.
>
>Actually, that's probably appropriate.  Ezra Pound wrote "too photographic"
> or something similar on the WL typescript (reproduced in V. Eliot's
>edition) by which he apparently meant the dialogue about "I never know what
>you are thinking," "I think we are in rat's alley," "What is the wind
>doing?" "Nothing again nothing," etc., seemed to come from his domestic
>life.   TimM
>

Yes, but even Eliot would not say, "I think we are in rat's alley where the
dead men lost their bones," in conversation.  I say it in conversation
sometimes, but only because I am quoting Eliot, or because I am making a
joke.  I understand Eliot's relationship with Viv was much like "A Game of
Chess," but I believe we can assume that Eliot made it more dramatic in
order to better portray their situation, to allow the reader to leave the
poem feeling the same emotions with which Eliot must have left the bedroom,
or whatever they called the 'living room' back then.  In film, one can
express these emotions visually, perhaps by showing anguish on Dafoe's
face, or showing him staring out the window while Viv rambles on.  I often
imagine Eliot doing that anyway.  Nobody, not even Eliot, says, "Nothing
again nothing," in conversation.


[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 12:01:35 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:02:15 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: Re: "Game of Chess" in Tom and Viv


>
>Yes, but even Eliot would not say, "I think we are in rat's alley where the
>dead men lost their bones," in conversation.  I say it in conversation
>sometimes, but only because I am quoting Eliot, or because I am making a
>joke.  I understand Eliot's relationship with Viv was much like "A Game of
>Chess," but I believe we can assume that Eliot made it more dramatic in
>order to better portray their situation, to allow the reader to leave the
>poem feeling the same emotions with which Eliot must have left the bedroom,
>or whatever they called the 'living room' back then.  In film, one can
>express these emotions visually, perhaps by showing anguish on Dafoe's
>face, or showing him staring out the window while Viv rambles on.

Yes, I certainly agree w/ your analysis.  As I said, I didn't see the film.
Do I really have to see the thing in order to be an informed Elioteer?

Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 13:22:16 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:21:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Catherine Elizabeth Paul <[log in to unmask]>
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To: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: In Memoriam Vivienne Haigh Eliot (was poor old formulated TSE)
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Peter:

_Tom and Viv_ is out on video; I missed it on the big screen but caught 
it on video over the holidays.

Best,
Catherine Paul
[log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 13:35:26 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:42:54 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: "Game of Chess" in Tom and Viv

  As I said, I didn't see the film.
>Do I really have to see the thing in order to be an informed Elioteer?


No, of course not, but it taught me a lot about Viv (since we cannot agree
on a correct spelling) that I had not known, because their relationship was
something I never really thought to investigate.

It was also nice to be able to sit through the movie thinking, ha-ha, I
know more about this subject than Hollywood.  In that way it was a good
self-esteem booster.

Jason


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 13:48:42 1996
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In regards to the "Tom & Viv" movie portrayal of Vivienne's recovery, does
anyone have an actual account of the extent of her emergence from madness.  The
film seems to exaggerate her return to normalcy at the end compared to what one
could think possible given her earlier derangement, the violence of its
associated antics and the remoteness of institutional re-habilitation at the
time (or perhaps, absolutely).

Thanks.

G.W.W.
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 16:10:37 1996
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Subject: Vivienne the female Prufrock and Eliot
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I've always been under the impression that Prufrock was Eliot, and sadly,
the way he saw himself.

>From what I have read about the relationship between Vivienne and TS, they
rather played off of each other.  Apparently, sex was the motivating factor
of the marriage. She was extremely intelligent and helpful to TS while
writing The Waste Land.  Vivienne, to be kind, was always rather strange,
but the marriage apparently just exacerbated her problems. No doubt with
today's hormones availble for women, she might have been kept on an even
keel.  However, she was so erratic, she probably drove TS into his nervous
breakdown.  It progressed to the point where she was following him all over
England, and making dreadful scenes at his speaking engagements.  In
retrospect his behavior towards her might seem cruel, but I believe he came
back here to the US to save his own sanity.  

The circumstances leading up to Vivienne's commitment, were unfortunate, but
were undetaken by both Eliot and her family.  He has been blamed for all the
years following, for never seeing her again.  I personally don't think he
had the emotional strength for it, and it was not a question of hatred for
his wife, or even dislike necessarily.  Selfish maybe, but very human.  Yes,
our idols do often have feet of clay!

BTW Vivienne is spelled both ways; it was rather a family thing.

Jackie

>On February 13, Peter Montgomery wrote:
>
>PM<I think E. was being somewhat facetious about himself. People
>projected so much at him (he was the Elvis/Beatles of his day),
>that I think he led them on a bit. He wasn't called Ol' Possum
>for nothing. He knew very well the value and role of wearing
>a mask. It gave him some public protection..>
>
>Well I can believe that, although the thought of TSE being mobbed by screaming
>teenage girls kind of strikes my funny bone.  
>
>PM<It was definitely Vivian who was to be pitied. I could be-
>lieve she was a female equivalent of Prufrock.>
>
>Vivian (wasn't it spelled Vivienne?) didn't have a very happy life, but I get
>the feeling she gave as good as she got.  I don't really buy the "TSE did it to
>her" theory.  As for a female Prufrock, that's a new one on me.  I always
>thought of Prufrock as a bit of a self-portrait, combined with a portrait of a
>certain type of character Eliot thought typical of his milieu that he
identified
>with in some ways.
>
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 16:27:10 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:24:41 +0000
Subject: Re: poor old formulated tse
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Funny, I heard the story about Bertrand Russell and Viv when in London 
last week.  Doesn't Kenner say that Mr Apollinax is or is about 
Bertrand Russell in The Invisble Poet ?
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 16:28:30 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:24:41 +0000
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I thought that this quote from Berryman might be of interest:

"Both the writer and the reader of long poems need gall, the 
outrageous, the intolerable - and they need it again and again.  The 
prospect of ignominious failure must haunt them continually.  Whitman 
our greatest poet has all this.  Eliot, next, perhaps even greater 
than Whitman, had it too.  Pound makes a marvellous frail third here. 
All three dazzingly original, you notice, and very hostile, both 
Pound and Eliot, to Whitman.  It is no good looking for models.  We 
want anti-models.

"I set up the Bradstreet poem as an attack on The Waste Land: 
personality, and plot -no anthropology, no Tarot pack, no Wagner.  I 
set up the dream songs as hostile to every visible tendency in 
American and English poetry - in so far as the Englosh have any 
poetry nowadays.  The aim was the same in both poems: the repoduction 
or invention of the motions of a human personality, free and 
determined, in one case feminine, in the other masculine.  Crtics are 
divided as to the degree of my success in both cases.  Long may they 
rave! (The Life of John Berryman, John Haffenden, Ark pp351 -352)

Berryman confirms surely in his view that:

1.  Eliot is an American poet.

2.  The badge of American poetry is orginality.

3.  English poetry in 1969 was in a bad way.

Perhaps English poetry was in a bad way then because it had spent 47 
years trying to rewrite The Waste Land instead of writing in its own 
tradition.  But then TSE and Pound had expended so much energy 
attacking the monuments of that tradition that they were generally 
ignored. 
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 16:28:45 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:24:41 +0000
Subject: Re: Vivienne the female Prufrock
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>  As for a female Prufrock, that's a new one on me.  I always
> thought of Prufrock as a bit of a self-portrait, combined with a portrait of a
> certain type of character Eliot thought typical of his milieu that he identified
> with in some ways.
> 
 

Was Tiresias a bit of  a self-potrait as well ??  But perhaps 
all of the Eliotic heroes are women dressed as 
men (an essential Shakespearian strategy........OOOOOh that 
Shakespeherian drag !).  If personality is essentially sexual then the flight from 
masculine personality would be into feminine personality.  Perhaps we 
should marry TSE off metaphorically to George Eliot.
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 16:32:12 1996
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Timothy Materer asked:
>Do I really have to see the thing in order to be an informed Elioteer?

No Timothy, I don't think you have to see the film.  However an informed
Elioteer would be able to see the truth or untruths in the film.  They do
put a very bad light on Eliot, I felt.  Viewers who haven't done their
homework might watch it and think TSE was some sort of a monster.  Not true.

Jackie

  

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 17:17:12 1996
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 14 Feb 1996 15:16:13 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:16:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vivienne the female Prufrock
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On Wednesday, 14 Feb 1996, at 08:01:06,
thus spake Virginia A Conn:

VA>Secondly, the idea that Vivienne 'gave as good as she got' is somewhat
VA>insensitive.  She did have some kind of mental disorder & what Eliot
VA>later regretted was his inability to help her (which is common to those
VA>whose loved ones are mentally ill).  But she was instrumental in the
VA>writing of The Waste Land (though the case made that she actually wrote
VA>some of it has no proof whatsoever).  Eliot always needed editing,
VA>which he got from Pound et al.  But editing is not creating.  Vivienne
VA>is a lot like Zelda to F. Scott Fitzgerald. Both has literary yearnings
VA>(not to suggest that those who write are crazy ;-)  Essentially bookish
VA>men drawn to exciting women.  

Haven't Vivienne's comments been identified on the original
manuscript? In THE MYSTERIOUS MR. ELIOT interview, E's sister
(or sister in-law?) said Viv was his muse.


Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 17:20:12 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:19:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "Game of Chess" in Tom and Viv
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On Wednesday, 14 Feb 1996, at 12:46:02,
thus spake Count Chocula:

CC>In film, one can
CC>express these emotions visually, perhaps by showing anguish on Dafoe's
CC>face, or showing him staring out the window while Viv rambles on.  I often
CC>imagine Eliot doing that anyway.  Nobody, not even Eliot, says, "Nothing
CC>again nothing," in conversation.

But they might think or feel it. It might be there between the lines.
The trick, I guess, is how to find an adequate way to express that
awareness without it seeming ridiculous.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 17:22:05 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:21:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: poor old formulated tse
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On Wednesday, 14 Feb 1996, at 22:24:41,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>Funny, I heard the story about Bertrand Russell and Viv when in London 
JC>last week.  Doesn't Kenner say that Mr Apollinax is or is about 
JC>Bertrand Russell in The Invisble Poet ?

There is a statement to that effect in the video, THE MYSTERIOUS
MR.ELIOT.

Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 17:28:39 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:29:20 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: Tiresias


>
>Was Tiresias a bit of  a self-potrait as well ??

Yes, indeed.  Pound thought so: hence Pound's note in the Waste Land manuscript:
"you Tiresias"

(Must find my copy of the facsimilie WL so I can put this and my other
recent quote from it in a clearer context)

Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
(314) 882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 17:35:07 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:35:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Jennifer Schmidt <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vivienne the female Prufrock

  I've only recently joined this group so I apologize in advance if I'm being
redundant.

    I always wondered if the way T.S.'s and Vivienne's "nervous condition" was
an indicator of a symbiotic relationship (with the volleying pattern of
episodes they'd have: first T.S. then Viv and back and forth etc.) which would 
make Tiresias a sort of metaphor for their marriage. "Hysteria" (was this 
Eliot's only prose poem?) certainly demonstrates his ability to get inside one 
of those episodes. This might explain why his style of poetry changed following
publication of "The Waste Land" and why he never visited his former wife, both 
were parts of his past that were too painful to confront again.

                                              cheers,
                                               Jennifer 
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 17:50:18 1996
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:50:15 -0600 (CST)
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Tiresias

I wonder if Pound was really thinking of Tiresias as Eliotic self-
portraiture when he scrawled in the *WL* MS margin, "you Tiresias."
Although Pound and Eliot kidded each other in ways consistent with
this interpretation, the marginal scrawl was something more like,
"You Tiresias if you know, know damn well," suggesting, I had always
thought, that Eliot's language of fastidious uncertainty ("too damn
perhaps-y," Pound says elsewhere in the MS) was at odds with Tiresias's
god-given gift of prophecy, which presumably would not require Eliotic
hedgings like "perhaps."

Bob Spoo
University of Tulsa
<[log in to unmask]>
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 17:57:59 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 15:56:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Was Prufrock, Eliot?
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Why am I so surprised to see people equating Prufrock
and Eliot?

I would not deny certain resemblances in style and dress,
but in substance? I don't see much of a fit at all.

I do come from a time when Eliot's dictums about
depersonalising by the poet were taken as gospel.
The good artist simply does not, according to that
school, wear his heart on his sleave. Supposedly one
need know nothing of the poet to digest the poem.
(Is the homosexuality of Auden relevant to a good
 understanding of his poem called "Lullaby"?

So it has never ocurred to me to draw much of a parallel
between Eliot and Prufrock (who's name means touchstone).
The more I make the comparison, the less I agree with
the possibility. Eliot had his socialite, dandy side,
but he was a doer. He wasn't a particularly thin
person either.

Then there is the fact that P. works as a touchstone so well,
for that other-directed mentality of which Riesman talks in
THE LONELY CROWD. Eliot was anything but other-directed.

If push came to shove, I would probably go so far as to
agree that P. resembles an external image of E. that some
of people have. But the real person?? I don't think so.

I'm also curious about the surprise at seeing a
female eqivalent to Prufrock. Is that mentality
not possible for a woman? Does it show up in such a highly
different way, that it can't be said to be a Prufrock?

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 18:58:28 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: Was Prufrock, Eliot?

 Supposedly one
>need know nothing of the poet to digest the poem.
>(Is the homosexuality of Auden relevant to a good
> understanding of his poem called "Lullaby"?
>


No, but his homosexuality is relevant to the poem which begins, "Stop all
the clocks, cut off the telephone,"  and later reads, "He was my North, my
South, my East and West."  I'm sure we all know of this poem.


And about the Eliot/Prufrock debate, I remember reading somewhere that
Eliot considered himself a sort of median between the two extremes of men:
Prufrock and Sweeney.  I'm sure he possessed some qualities of both.

Jason Tarricone


From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 19:03:43 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:02:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tiresias
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On Wednesday, 14 Feb 1996, at 17:29:20,
thus spake Timothy Materer:

>>Was Tiresias a bit of  a self-potrait as well ??
TM>Yes, indeed.  Pound thought so: hence Pound's note in the Waste Land manuscript:
TM>"you Tiresias"
TM>
TM>(Must find my copy of the facsimilie WL so I can put this and my other
TM>recent quote from it in a clearer context)

from E's note: "What Tiresias SEES in fact is the substance of the poem."

So indeed, how could T. be anything but E.?
(See the full note for the original tale about T).

So what is Eliot saying about himself by the projection?
Prophetic seer?
Hermaphrodite?
Great judge of beauty?
Balanced animus/anima?
Like Homer and Milton? ("Blind eyes could blaze like meteors....")

Roughly, he says in his note, T. isn't really a character, 
but contains all the characters in the poem. I forget where
Eliot said it, but he did say the notes were something of
a put on, to spike his critics guns for their put downs
based on his not supplying sources in Prufrock. So said
notes should be taken with several heavy salt licks.

Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 14 19:11:01 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:10:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Was Prufrock, Eliot?
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Wednesday, 14 Feb 1996, at 20:06:32,
thus spake Count Chocula:

CC>And about the Eliot/Prufrock debate, I remember reading somewhere that
CC>Eliot considered himself a sort of median between the two extremes of men:
CC>Prufrock and Sweeney.  I'm sure he possessed some qualities of both.

Makes sense to me. I believe SWEENEY AGONISTES was a 1927 piece
of work, close to the time of his conversion.

I suppose we could add the speaker of "Journey of the Magi"
to the mix, as well. Seems to me the whole thing reads
like an allegory for E's conversion.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 01:28:27 1996
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On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> from E's note: "What Tiresias SEES in fact is the substance of the poem."
> 
> So indeed, how could T. be anything but E.?
> (See the full note for the original tale about T).
> 
> So what is Eliot saying about himself by the projection?
> Prophetic seer?
> Hermaphrodite?
> Great judge of beauty?
> Balanced animus/anima?
> Like Homer and Milton? ("Blind eyes could blaze like meteors....")
> 
I think E. could very well have thought himself somwhat prophetic, if 
only by virtue of being a poet, with the traditional idea of the poet 
seeing more than others.  It would also fit well with Prufrock -- if
we allow that E. felt he had at least some characteristics in common with 
Prufrock, the lines "Would it have been worth while,...To say: 'I am 
Lazarus, come from the dead, / come back to tell you all, I shall tell 
you all'" could easily come from E.' side of Prufrock.

m
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 02:51:06 1996
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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 02:57:52 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Tiresias
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	Why Tiresias?
	Because he was engaged by Zeus (TSE) and Hera (Viv) to declare 
who gets the most pleasure out of the sexual act, the male (probably NOT 
TSE) or the female (Viv?) Then Viv struck him blind because she didn't 
approve of his answer.

				* 

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:
> 
> > from E's note: "What Tiresias SEES in fact is the substance of the poem."
> > 
> > So indeed, how could T. be anything but E.?
> > (See the full note for the original tale about T).
> > 
> > So what is Eliot saying about himself by the projection?
> > Prophetic seer?
> > Hermaphrodite?
> > Great judge of beauty?
> > Balanced animus/anima?
> > Like Homer and Milton? ("Blind eyes could blaze like meteors....")
> > 
> I think E. could very well have thought himself somwhat prophetic, if 
> only by virtue of being a poet, with the traditional idea of the poet 
> seeing more than others.  It would also fit well with Prufrock -- if
> we allow that E. felt he had at least some characteristics in common with 
> Prufrock, the lines "Would it have been worth while,...To say: 'I am 
> Lazarus, come from the dead, / come back to tell you all, I shall tell 
> you all'" could easily come from E.' side of Prufrock.
> 
> m
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 09:21:32 1996
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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:28:19 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
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	Bob:

		I mentioned your note about editing a collection of 
Pound's letters to the poet Carolyn Forche yesterday. She wrote back 
telling me that she wanted to talk to you about them in connection with 
the second volume of her anthology Against Forgetting. I took the liberty 
or sending her your e-mail address. If you wish to contact her, she can 
be reached at

		CAROLYN L. FORCHE-MATTISON

		[log in to unmask]

						--John Gilgun 
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 10:54:03 1996
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From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:53:24 -0600
Subject: Vivien / "The Mysterious Mr. Eliot"
Reply-to: Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>
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Peter Montgomery wrote: 
> It seems [Vivien] had some kind of nervous disorder. I've 
> read about it in a number of different places but the source 
> that comes most immediately to mind is a video interview 
> with Eliot's sister that I caught on PBS quite some years 
> ago. I believe it was called THE MYSTERIOUS MR. ELIOT. The 
> sister went into a lot of detail about how Vivian would act 
> very paranoid and suspicious about the least little thing, 
> like offering her a piece of cake, or some such thing. 
> 

Peter's memory is only a little off here: the description came
not from Eliot's sister but from the writer Hope Mirlees.
According to the LISTENER's report on Stephen Cross's BBC special
THE MYSTERIOUS MR ELIOT, 

     Mrs. Hope Mirlees spoke about Eliot's first wife Vivienne,
     who, it seems, showed signs of serious mental instability
     within weeks of their marriage and who before that had taken 
     to using drugs: "She gave the impression of absolute terror,
     of a person who's seen a hideous ghost, a goblin ghost, and
     who was always seeing a goblin in front of her.  Her face 
     was all drawn and white, with wild, frightened, angry eyes.
     An over-intensity over nothing, you see.  Supposing you
     would say to her, 'Oh, will you have some more cake?' she'd
     say, 'What's that? What do you mean? What do you say that
     for?'  She was terrifying.  At the end of an hour I was
     absolutely exhausted, sucked dry.  And I felt to myself:
     Poor Tom, this is enough!  But she was his muse all the 
     same. . . . I doubt if he'd have ever written THE WASTE
     LAND if it hadn't been for Vivienne.  She was a terrible
     . . . [ellipsis in source] and yet she'd a queer streak
     of imagination in her.  One might almost sometimes rather
     like her."

Several equally unforgettable descriptions of Vivien can be
found in Virginia Woolf's letters and journals.  Like Mirlees',
her loyalty was with Eliot, so she is not always very sympathetic
to Vivien; but her eye for character and description makes her
accounts well worth reading.

Greg
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Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]> * http://www.missouri.edu/~enggf/
Coordinator, "Turbo" English Sections * Listowner, TSE, the T.S.Eliot List
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From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 11:19:32 1996
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A quick note on THE FAMILY REUNION, to complicate the discussion
of its possible relation to TSE's life.  In Conrad Aiken's
novel/memoir USHANT, he maliciously relates some gossip about a 
former friend, Thomas T. McCabe ("Wild Michael"), which sounds 
remarkably like the background plot of TSE's FAMILY REUNION.  
USHANT, of course, dates from after FR, but the events he is 
describing apparently took place c. 1917:

     Was it true, as some thought, that there was a streak of 
     murderousness in him -- a sadism, and cruelty, that made him
     capable of calculated murder?  There had been those, on his 
     return alone from his honeymoon in the Canadian Northwest,
     with the story that the canoe had capsized, and his wife had
     been lost in the rapids of the Peace River, who believed her
     loss was intentional.  He had married the girl --- they said 
     -- unwillingly, as as result of pressure from her mother, 
     for he was rumored to have compromised her.  There were 
     those who had in fact actually made the prediction that she
     would not return alive.  But an investigation, and inquiries
     of the Hudson's Bay Company, proved nothing.  Another party
     which had passed him on the river, going the other way, had
     warned him that the rapids were near, and dangerous, had 
     advised him to make a portage around them; but apparently 
     the advice was not heeded.  He had seen his wife swimming
     strongly towards the shore, he said, and then, he thought,
     rising from the water -- this while he tried to right the
     canoe -- but he had himself been swept downstream (how far
     he couldn't guess) and had lost consciousness.  When he 
     regained consciousness, it was to find himself washed up on 
     a spit of beach, sans canoe and sans wife.  With the help of
     another party, which came along later in the morning (and in
     this he had been lucky -- for weeks might have passed), the
     woods and shores, on both sides of the wild river, were 
     scoured for days.  The canoe was recovered, many miles 
     below.  But of the lost wife no trace was ever to be found.

This yet another curious discovery from my ongoing research on
TSE and murder.  Can anyone tell me anything more about Thomas 
T. McCabe?

Incidentally, I realize I left the citation off my quote from
the LISTENER in my last post (Mirlees' description of Vivien). 
The reference is:

     "Eliot's Life" [one of three short pieces in the "Out of 
          the Air" column]. LISTENER 85, no. 2181 (14 Jan 71):50.

Greg
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This is to verify whether my posts are getting through. Would listowner please 
respond?  Thanks.  James Loucks.  [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 16:37:41 1996
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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:00:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: Tiresias
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On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:

> 	Why Tiresias?
> 	Because he was engaged by Zeus (TSE) and Hera (Viv) to declare 
> who gets the most pleasure out of the sexual act, the male (probably NOT 
> TSE) or the female (Viv?) Then Viv struck him blind because she didn't 
> approve of his answer.
> 
> 				* 

When, actually, does your plane for Ireland depart?




From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 16:48:57 1996
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From: Catherine Hubbard <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 14:17:52 -0800
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Q: Which work is this line from?

Hi everyone!
I am new to this list and not a TSE scholar, so my apologies for  
asking a rather basic question.

I heard this quotation some time ago and I believe it's TSE, but I  
have been unable to locate it. Can someone direct me to the correct  
work? The line (which may not be exact) is:
"How long it can take a man
to know that he is dead."

TIA for your help.
Regards,
Catherine
[log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 17:59:57 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:57:29 +0000
Subject: TSE: english and american poetry
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If I can quote from Hobsbaum in Tradition and Experiment in English 
Poetry p304:

"My main thesis, I suppose, is that English poetry in the c20th has 
had four atrocious strokes of luck.  They are worth enumerating.  

First of all, that the wrong emphasis should have been placed  on the 
work of the one great Victorian who could have had a useful influence 
- I mean Hardy.  Secondly that the Georgians, for the most part, 
should have chosen to regard tradition as a resting place rather than 
a launching pad.  Third that three of the poets who were developing 
an essentially English modernity should have been killed in the War - 
their publication too was delayed and incomplete.  And lastly that 
Eliot and Pound should have chosen to start an essentially Amercian 
revolution in verse technique over here rather than in the United 
States, and so filled the gap which the death of the war poets left 
with an alien product whose influence has been a bad one."

Hobsbaum totally ignores Poe, a major American writer, and David 
Jones, a major English poet and painter.  Which is strange since 
Auden decribed Jones's In Parenthesis as the greatest long poem in 
english this century.
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 18:00:29 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:57:29 +0000
Subject: Re: Vivienne the female Prufrock
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> Date:          Wed, 14 Feb 1996 17:35:48 -0600 (CST)
> Reply-to:      [log in to unmask]
> From:          Jennifer Schmidt <[log in to unmask]>
> To:            [log in to unmask]
> Subject:       Re: Vivienne the female Prufrock

> This might explain why his style of poetry changed following
> publication of "The Waste Land" and why he never visited his former wife, both 
> were parts of his past that were too painful to confront again.
> 
>                                               cheers,
>                                                Jennifer 
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "style of poetry" but Kenner notes that 
not only the FQ's but also Pound's Cantos employ the form of the WL.  
Also there are direct mappings of themes from the WL into the 
FQ's.  The difference is that in the WL the imagery is "demonic" 
whereas in the FQ's it is "beatific", even to the extent of the 
Blitzgrieg Stukkas imaging Pentecost in "the dove descending breaks 
the air with flame of incandescent terror".   

Kenner also takes the view in The Pound Era that Part IV of Ash 
Wednesday is a plain narrative of a visit to his wife in the asylum. 
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 19:43:24 1996
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Date: 15 Feb 96 20:42:04 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: wind that does nothing
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

On Valentine's Day,  Tim M, wrote:

< "What is the wind >doing?" "Nothing again nothing," etc., seemed to come from
his domestic
>life.  >

Eliot did a fair bit of sailing as a young man and seemed to use marine images a
lot in his poetry generally and in this poem in particular.  It is common for
sailors to be checking the wind, asking themselves & each other what it is
doing, etc.   because the wind direction & force is so vital to the speed and
direction of the boat, and the safety of the passengers.This particular exchange
would not be out of place in normal conversation on a becalmed sailboat.    When
the wind is doing nothing, the sailor is becalmed & isn't moving - is stuck, is
drifting helplessly with the current.  It would be a metaphor for a marriage
that isn't going anywhere, where the partners have lost control and can't seem
to find a direction  - and for a life, civilization that isn't going anywhere.
It is interesting that she is asking him what the wind is doing as if she had no
way of reading it, perhaps lacking the "sailing" or the life skills to steer her
own boat or to particpate in the steering of their common boat - that she
couldn't understand what was going on.  It is as if he were the only one who
could read the wind.  It could certainly be a metaphor for his domestic life, if
she laid all responsibility for managing the relationship on him, and if he saw
the "wind", or the driving force in a relationship (love, chemistry,
compatibility, commitment?) as being dead. 

From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 19:43:59 1996
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Date: 15 Feb 96 20:41:54 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The Prufrocks
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

On Valentine's Day, Peter Montgomery wrote:

< Whether ELiot "did it to her" or not, Sencourt
makes a good case for their personalities being a mis-match.
She needed something he could supply her with, so it is
plausible that she dreamed of alternatives, and that she felt
trapped.

Again, I said, "I could believe", based on the torture that
she seems to have gone through. I take the epigraph quite
seriously.>

Someone else also wrote something about TSE's guilt over not being able to help
her because she was mentally ill, that I was insensitive for suggesting she gave
as good as she got, that she was attracted to him for his poetic talent and he
was attracted to her for her dazzle, sorry I seem to have lost the message, so I
can't quote exactly or properly credit the source.

It seems pretty clear to me from everything I've heard and read about the Eliot
marriage that they were not well suited, and that they both had a miserable
time.  
His misery came out in the form of poetry that has captured the imagination of
large numbers of people all over the planet.  Hers came out in the form of
making him miserable enough to write it, as well as in any editing help and
inspiration she may have given him.  No doubt she was one of his major muses,
albeit a cruel one.  I don't mean to belittle her suffering by suggesting that
she caused as much suffering as she experienced. The reverse is undoubtedly true
as well.  No doubt it was a tragic situation for both.  

There are many unhappy relationships out there - the tabloids are full of
situations that turn out even worse.  Each one offers its own micro-universe of
pain, guilt, love, joy, sometimes ending with reconciliation and happily ever
after, sometimes ending in separation, sometimes ending in murder and suicide.
There are enough stories  out there to keep every writer in the world busy
forever.  This one interests us because of  TSE's ability (with a little help
from his friends) to transform his suffering into art.  Vivien(ne) seems to have
bee the sort of person that would have _appeared_more artistic, sensitive, etc.
in her external presentation than TSE, who _appeared_ to be cold, insensitive,
etc. because he had a quieter, more introverted personality.  Therefore I think
many commentators are more sympathetic to her than to TSE.  However the fact
remains that he was the one who worked through his problems and gave us the
poetry that brings us together in this newsgroup, not she.  However little he
may have _looked_ like the artist, there is no question that he _was_ the
artist. 

 Many other writers have been and are shy and withdrawn.  I remember going to a
reading where the writer couldn't face all the people and hid behind the door
while her friend actually did the reading.  Yet these other writers don't seem
to attract the kind of criticism that TSE attracts for being reserved,  etc.
Other great artists, writers, performers, etc. have been known to treat their
women horribly, yet they don't seem to attract the kind of criticism TSE
attracts for not being able to handle an emotionally disturbed wife.  That's why
I wonder if his own self-hatred and projection of that onto others isn't part of
why some people fee that way about him.  

Perhaps a different husband would have been able to help her achieve whatever
artistic potential she may have had, perhaps not.  Bertrand Russell doesn't seem
to have been much more help.  One thing that seems to be critical for  people
suffering from mental illness is for them to take responsibility for their own
feelings & for the treatment of their illness, rather than living in self-pity,
blaming others for not fixing their lives. I don't get much sense from what I
have read that she ever took responsibility in that way.  One of TSE's
biographers describes that she used to stalk him long after they had separated,
beg him to take her back, etc., and that her family blamed him for not being
able to fix her up.  I believe he did support her financially until she died,
but just couldn't handle being around her.  I don't see what else a person can
do in that situation.  We have stopped seeing marriage as a life sentence no
matter how bad it is, and that one mate has to be absolutely responsible for the
other even when it's over.  Thank heavens. 

PM<I'm also curious about the surprise at seeing a
female eqivalent to Prufrock. Is that mentality
not possible for a woman? Does it show up in such a highly
different way, that it can't be said to be a Prufrock?>

Just about anyone, male or female,  who feels beat up by the universe, who feels
that somehow they haven't got everything they could have out of life, that they
are running out of time, and that they just haven't got what it takes to squeeze
the universe into a ball and make it dance the way they would like (just about
all of us at some time or other in our lives) could relate to Prufrock.  That's
why we're still reading and mulling over it.  I've known female Prufrocks, and
there are times when I feel like one <g>. TSE's observations of Vivien(ne)'s
plight, as well as his own undoubtedly found their way into the poem, so in that
sense I suppose VHE did find her way into the poem.  I doubt if Eliot
consciously thought he was describing Vivien(ne) when he wrote the poem, unless
he saw _her_ as an aging, balding, etc. etc., which seems unlikely.  


PM><I do come from a time when Eliot's dictums about
depersonalising by the poet were taken as gospel.
The good artist simply does not, according to that
school, wear his heart on his sleeve.>
PM<Eliot had his socialite, dandy side,
but he was a doer>

PM<Then there is the fact that P. works as a touchstone so well,
for that other-directed mentality of which Riesman talks in
THE LONELY CROWD. Eliot was anything but other-directed.

If push came to shove, I would probably go so far as to
agree that P. resembles an external image of E. that some
of people have. But the real person?? I don't think so.>

I agree with you completely here.  I get very irritated by what I see as a
superficial view of Eliot as a completely Prufrock-like failure.  Prufrock-like
failures don't win the Nobel Prize.  But...good writers also write about what
they know.  I think he was describing what he saw the human condition of his
time to be through the eyes of a person whom he considered typical of his own
milieu.  And I think that in his own mind (I think I'm repeating myself too,
however...) he did put a bit of himself into this portrait.  So many of his
narrators and protagonists are fighting against despair,  futility, and failure,
it's hard not to believe he was writing from a part of himself that also felt
despair, futility, and failure.  That's not all there is to him, I quite agree.
There is a great deal of hope in his poetry - that's one of the things I find so
attractive about Eliot - that he manages to claw his way back to a sense of hope
out of utter black despair.  This is particularly wonderful in Ash Wednesday,
which begins "Because I do not hope" and the aged eagle that no longer has wings
to fly, then ends "Although I do not hope", and those  wonderful lines about the
sea birds flying out to sea on unbroken wings and the sounds and scents of the
land and sea bringing the dead heart back to life.  








From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 19:55:21 1996
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 15 Feb 1996 17:53:10 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:53:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tiresias
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On Thursday, 15 Feb 1996, at 02:57:52,
thus spake John Gilgun:

JG>	Why Tiresias?
JG>	Because he was engaged by Zeus (TSE) and Hera (Viv) to declare 
JG>who gets the most pleasure out of the sexual act, the male (probably NOT 
JG>TSE) or the female (Viv?) Then Viv struck him blind because she didn't 
JG>approve of his answer.

Um, er, ah -- how can I put this nicely so that Christine Norstrand
won't clutter up my mail box with more lessons on politeness....

Are we saying here that Eliot is both Zeus and Tiresias?
(I realise we're being a bit facetious here, and I got the joke,
 -- which I find quite amusing -- I'm just trying to sort out the
logic. You see, I'm mindful that Zeus once said to Narcissus:
"Watch yourself.")

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 20:01:47 1996
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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Vivien / "The Mysterious Mr. Eliot"
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 15 Feb 1996, at 10:53:24,
thus spake Greg Foster:

GF>Peter's memory is only a little off here: the description came
GF>not from Eliot's sister but from the writer Hope Mirlees.
Guess I'm going to going to have to go back and review the tape.
I'm wondering whether it was a misunderstanding, or memory loss.
It stands out so clearly in mind. It is really quite a remarkable
interview.

GF>According to the LISTENER's report on Stephen Cross's BBC special
GF>THE MYSTERIOUS MR ELIOT, 
GF>
GF>     Mrs. Hope Mirlees spoke about Eliot's first wife Vivienne,
GF>     who, it seems, showed signs of serious mental instability
...............................
Thank you for providing this extract. It is most useful.
Some of the poignancy comes through in print, but the
speaker communicates a subtext of feeling that provides
even more richness.

GF>     LAND if it hadn't been for Vivienne.  She was a terrible
GF>     . . . [ellipsis in source] and yet she'd a queer streak
GF>     of imagination in her.  One might almost sometimes rather
GF>     like her."

That "ellipsis" is a deep almost moaning sigh from the gut.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 15 22:16:42 1996
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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:15:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE: english and american poetry
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 15 Feb 1996, at 23:57:29,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>If I can quote from Hobsbaum in Tradition and Experiment in English 
JC>Poetry p304:

JC>"... And lastly that 
JC>Eliot and Pound should have chosen to start an essentially Amercian 
JC>revolution in verse technique over here rather than in the United 
JC>States, and so filled the gap which the death of the war poets left 
JC>with an alien product whose influence has been a bad one."

Of course it was (on E.'s part anyway) essentially USian.
That's why E. spent so much time learning Anglo-Saxon
rhythms, and bringing in so many forgotten voices from
the past. The really key symbol of its US quality was the
name, *vers libre*. What could be more obviously from the U.S.
side of the Atlantic? (Not to mention The Golden Bough,
and From Ritual to Romance, and all that time spent on
the Elizabethans). And then, of course, there was the fact
(?) that verse libre was already so well established in the
US, so that its techniques couldn't be anything other than
USian. Which reminds me, why didn't Pound join the imagist
movement anyway? Did he get stuck on a black mountain or
some such thing?

I know! Eliot simply discovered a secret cache of Poe's work
and with the help of Arthur Symons dribbled it out, bit by bit.
It's a conspiracy, I tell you. It's enough to rot the petals
off Le Fleur du Mal (wasn't he a hockey player for the St. Louis
Blues?). That's why Eliot worked in a bank. He said somewhere
that  poetry is a mug's game, as Gomez sez in THE ELDER STATESMAN
that forgery is a mug's game. I guess that means that LaForguery
is even more of a mug's game. A bank would give him lots of models
to forge a head.

Fee, fie, fo fum. I smell the pen of an Americun.

People shouldn't tempt me like this. I have no will power to
restrain myself (because I do not hope to strain again).

Vive Quebec libre! Vive verse libre!

"Hieronymo's mad againe."

Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 06:46:57 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: "Nicola D'Agostino" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: tse speech


Mahlzeit to you,

some time ago this was posted on the TSE list:

>Go to=7F

>http://town.hall.org/Archives/radio/IMS/HarperAudio/011894_harp_ITH.html

>They have Eliot reading the entire Waste Land in available in >RealAudio,
u-law, and whatever .gsm is.

I just wanted to let you know that the files in Real Audio don` t work (I=
 mean
there`s nothing to download) but the gsms work pretty well as soon as you=
 get a
gsm decoder (I used *Gsmany* for MS-DOS computers) and you transform them=
 into
..wav.

I d/loaded *Burial of the dead* and *What the tunder said* and then recorded=
 it
all on an audio-cassette by connecting my computer to the Hi-fi.

Of course the quality of the recording isn`t very satysfying, but still you=
 can
hear Eliot`s voice almost for free...

Nicola D`Agostino :-]
P.S. .gsm is a data/sound encoding (compression) format developed and mainly
used by cellular phones.

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 09:54:35 1996
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:54:26 -0500 (EST)
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Introduction

Greetings, group!

After lurking (or "possuming") on the list for some time, I feel that it's
time for me to let you know who I am.

I teach at Wofford College in Spartanburg, SC, a small liberal arts college
with a heavy teaching load.  My Ph.D. is from Chapel Hill, where I wrote my
dissertation on Eliot's use of classical ideas and images, as filtered through
Virgil, Dante, Shakespeare, Senecan tragedy, etc.

Recently I've been working on a Multimedia Guide to The Waste Land--presenting
the poem with Eliot's reading, basic commentary, and "hot words" that connect
with information about Eliot's sources, his footnotes, etc.

For instance, clicking on "St. Mary Woolnoth" calls up pictures of the church,
inside and out, information on Christopher Wren, the Fire of London, St. Paul's,Samuel Pepys and his diary, and John Dryden's Annus Mirabilis.

I understand that there are several hypertext programs on Eliot out there, but
I don't know anything about them.  I'd be interested in hearing what you all
know about all of this, especially ways of getting the program distributed on
CD-ROM, and whether you'd be interested in using the program.  (It might be
perfect as part of John Gilgun's month-long study of TSE!)

             Yours from snowy (believe it or not) South Carolina,
                            Mary Margaret Richards
                            [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 10:19:34 1996
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From: James F Loucks <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: wind etc.
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:19:16 -0500 (EST)
Cc: [log in to unmask]
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Florentia Scott makes some very good points in her recent postings. I think
she's quite right in saying that the frame of reference for "What is the wind
doing?" is that of sailing; it ties in with the lines "Frisch weht der Wind"
[etc.]. As for the female Prufrock, or Vivien-Prufrock connection, it is well
to remember that TSE drafted Prufrock when he was in Paris/Europe in 1910-11;
the character Prufrock strongly resembles the speaker of Portrait of a Lady
(albeit a bit older). He also recalls Browning's Andrea del Sarto in being 
timid and in having severe self-esteem problems (or should I say
inferiority/superiority hangups?) -- also in his inability to capture the
attention of his love-object (in Browning's poem, his own wife, Lucrezia).
Incidentally, the half-line "What is it?" has a double meaning: "it" of course
has "overwhelming question" as antecedent; but it also means "What is the
matter?" -- thus "the visit" will not only attempt to get at the "question" 
(which is
never disclosed), but also explore "what is the matter" with Prufrock. (Having
said that, I think Lyndall Gordon et al may be right in speculating that J.
Alfred never actually goes out to face the faces that evening.)

It is interesting that, later, Peter De Vries recognized the Prufrockian
elements in James Thurber's males; i.e., their universality (in the modern era,
anyway). There were similar figures in British lit before as well as after J
Alfred; for instance, I think that Leonard Bast, in Howards End, has some of
JA's traits, including his uneasy relations with women and his intense interior
life. Of course, there is a
class difference, Bast being from a working class background, and wearing
his bowler hat as uneasily as TSE's Bradford millionaire!  Prufrock, on the
other hand, is the epitome of sartorial splendour (by his own admission).

Speaking of Howards End, there are remarkable similarities between Forster's
depiction of London on a workday, and the celebrated scene in Part I of TWL, of
crowds of people flowing over the bridge heading to work.

Cheers...   James F. Loucks       [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 13:12:32 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:16:21 +0000
To: [log in to unmask]
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]> (by way of Christine Norstrand <[log in to unmask]>)
Subject: peter

I don't know what this means, but I complained to the list owner
about peter's latest anti-americanism & I got dropped from the list!
I'm glad though.  I think I'll make it a rule to drop whatever list
he shows up on!  

Nice talking to you!

Virginia


From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 13:22:49 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:29:39 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: wind etc.
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	My guess is that the models for the speaker in Portrait of a Lady 
and The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock can be found in the novels of 
Henry James. I'm thinking now of Strether in The Ambassadors. Given 
Eliot's admiration for James ("He had a mind so pure no idea could 
violate it." --TSE) I think this is a safe bet. Note also the James novel 
Portrait of a Lady. This would indicate direct homage to James. 
	I agree, however, that the living embodiments of the type could 
be found in Cambridge, Boston, London, etc. Cf. the Boston and Cambridge 
figures satirized in the poems of e. e. cummings. I'm thinking of the 
uncle (?) led around Brattle Street by a castrated pup, etc. Or the 
cambridge ladies who live in furnished souls and are unbeautiful. 

						--John Gilgun 

On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, James F Loucks wrote:

> Florentia Scott makes some very good points in her recent postings. I think
> she's quite right in saying that the frame of reference for "What is the wind
> doing?" is that of sailing; it ties in with the lines "Frisch weht der Wind"
> [etc.]. As for the female Prufrock, or Vivien-Prufrock connection, it is well
> to remember that TSE drafted Prufrock when he was in Paris/Europe in 1910-11;
> the character Prufrock strongly resembles the speaker of Portrait of a Lady
> (albeit a bit older). He also recalls Browning's Andrea del Sarto in being 
> timid and in having severe self-esteem problems (or should I say
> inferiority/superiority hangups?) -- also in his inability to capture the
> attention of his love-object (in Browning's poem, his own wife, Lucrezia).
> Incidentally, the half-line "What is it?" has a double meaning: "it" of course
> has "overwhelming question" as antecedent; but it also means "What is the
> matter?" -- thus "the visit" will not only attempt to get at the "question" 
> (which is
> never disclosed), but also explore "what is the matter" with Prufrock. (Having
> said that, I think Lyndall Gordon et al may be right in speculating that J.
> Alfred never actually goes out to face the faces that evening.)
> 
> It is interesting that, later, Peter De Vries recognized the Prufrockian
> elements in James Thurber's males; i.e., their universality (in the modern era,
> anyway). There were similar figures in British lit before as well as after J
> Alfred; for instance, I think that Leonard Bast, in Howards End, has some of
> JA's traits, including his uneasy relations with women and his intense interior
> life. Of course, there is a
> class difference, Bast being from a working class background, and wearing
> his bowler hat as uneasily as TSE's Bradford millionaire!  Prufrock, on the
> other hand, is the epitome of sartorial splendour (by his own admission).
> 
> Speaking of Howards End, there are remarkable similarities between Forster's
> depiction of London on a workday, and the celebrated scene in Part I of TWL, of
> crowds of people flowing over the bridge heading to work.
> 
> Cheers...   James F. Loucks       [log in to unmask]
> 
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 13:30:57 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:30:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: peter
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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A piece of private correspondence was posted without my consent.
I wish to remain unsubscribed.
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 14:28:03 1996
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From: James F Loucks <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: wind etc
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:26:59 -0500 (EST)
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Re; John Gilgun's latest:  What I forgot to say, with regard to Portrait of a
Lady, was that TSE himself had a quite similar attachment to one of what Aiken
calls the precieuses ridicules of Boston society; thus, he is his own model for
the speaker of Portrait. To the extent that Prufrock resembles the speaker of
Portrait, TSE is his own model for Prufrock as well.

I quite agree that James had to be in TSE's mind; Lyndall Gordon rightly points
out the numerous parallels between James's fictions and TSE's work. Another
parallel is with James Duffy in Joyce's A Painful Case: a fastidious bachelor
who cannot reach out to women, etc.  Prufrock and Dubliners were published
within a year or so of each other (I don't have the data in front of me), so
their co-appearance is no doubt mere coincidence -- just added proof that the
character type was seen as symptomatic of modern urban life. Also, as said
before, Prufrock was composed a few years before its original appearance in
1915, so for influences you have to look to pre-1910 era..

BTW, there is a fascinating near-parallel between Portrait of a Lady and an
obscure Harvard poem by
the (now truly obscure) poet Witter Bynner, about a Boston dame who entertains
young Harvard men at Marliave's, and ... dies(!). According to Herbert Howarth,
there was something of a fad among Harvard literati for writing mildly
satiric poems about the social scene in Cambridge/Boston. Seen in the light of
Howarth's comment, Portrait is simply the best of that genre.

Bynner, incidentally, was terribly envious
of TSE's fame, and once huffily exited a room full of folk who were drooling
over TSE, saying, "I went to Harvard, too!" Bynner's claims to fame are that he
perpetrated a (once-famous) literary hoax; and that he knew D.H. Lawrence (at 
Mabel Dodge Luhan's digs out West).
..
For would-be poets, there is a Witter Bynner prize, and there is a Witter
Bynner foundation, which might seem to indicate that Bynner had considerable
wealth; thus does his name live on.  Thus spake... (with apologies for the
bad-looking text; my software is primitive, and I can't edit without taking
eons to do it; I must take responsibility for any digressions you see above).

James F. Loucks            [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 15:41:51 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:48:41 -0600 (CST)
From: John Gilgun <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: wind etc.
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	Marcher in The Beast in the Jungle is an even better model than 
Strether. This theme of the man who never lived because he never made 
choices--: it's part of its class and time. I find it in Henry Adams, for 
instance. Apeneck Sweeney lives his sensuous and apelike existence but we 
Boston Brahmins... Alas! Etc., etc. --JG 

On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, John Gilgun wrote:

> 	My guess is that the models for the speaker in Portrait of a Lady 
> and The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock can be found in the novels of 
> Henry James. I'm thinking now of Strether in The Ambassadors. Given 
> Eliot's admiration for James ("He had a mind so pure no idea could 
> violate it." --TSE) I think this is a safe bet. Note also the James novel 
> Portrait of a Lady. This would indicate direct homage to James. 
> 	I agree, however, that the living embodiments of the type could 
> be found in Cambridge, Boston, London, etc. Cf. the Boston and Cambridge 
> figures satirized in the poems of e. e. cummings. I'm thinking of the 
> uncle (?) led around Brattle Street by a castrated pup, etc. Or the 
> cambridge ladies who live in furnished souls and are unbeautiful. 
> 
> 						--John Gilgun 
> 
> On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, James F Loucks wrote:
> 
> > Florentia Scott makes some very good points in her recent postings. I think
> > she's quite right in saying that the frame of reference for "What is the wind
> > doing?" is that of sailing; it ties in with the lines "Frisch weht der Wind"
> > [etc.]. As for the female Prufrock, or Vivien-Prufrock connection, it is well
> > to remember that TSE drafted Prufrock when he was in Paris/Europe in 1910-11;
> > the character Prufrock strongly resembles the speaker of Portrait of a Lady
> > (albeit a bit older). He also recalls Browning's Andrea del Sarto in being 
> > timid and in having severe self-esteem problems (or should I say
> > inferiority/superiority hangups?) -- also in his inability to capture the
> > attention of his love-object (in Browning's poem, his own wife, Lucrezia).
> > Incidentally, the half-line "What is it?" has a double meaning: "it" of course
> > has "overwhelming question" as antecedent; but it also means "What is the
> > matter?" -- thus "the visit" will not only attempt to get at the "question" 
> > (which is
> > never disclosed), but also explore "what is the matter" with Prufrock. (Having
> > said that, I think Lyndall Gordon et al may be right in speculating that J.
> > Alfred never actually goes out to face the faces that evening.)
> > 
> > It is interesting that, later, Peter De Vries recognized the Prufrockian
> > elements in James Thurber's males; i.e., their universality (in the modern era,
> > anyway). There were similar figures in British lit before as well as after J
> > Alfred; for instance, I think that Leonard Bast, in Howards End, has some of
> > JA's traits, including his uneasy relations with women and his intense interior
> > life. Of course, there is a
> > class difference, Bast being from a working class background, and wearing
> > his bowler hat as uneasily as TSE's Bradford millionaire!  Prufrock, on the
> > other hand, is the epitome of sartorial splendour (by his own admission).
> > 
> > Speaking of Howards End, there are remarkable similarities between Forster's
> > depiction of London on a workday, and the celebrated scene in Part I of TWL, of
> > crowds of people flowing over the bridge heading to work.
> > 
> > Cheers...   James F. Loucks       [log in to unmask]
> > 
> 
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 16:46:36 1996
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 id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Fri,
 16 Feb 1996 14:45:35 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:45:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tiresias
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thursday, 15 Feb 1996, at 01:28:26,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

c>I think E. could very well have thought himself somwhat prophetic, if 
c>only by virtue of being a poet, with the traditional idea of the poet 
c>seeing more than others.  It would also fit well with Prufrock -- if
c>we allow that E. felt he had at least some characteristics in common with 
c>Prufrock, the lines "Would it have been worth while,...To say: 'I am 
c>Lazarus, come from the dead, / come back to tell you all, I shall tell 
c>you all'" could easily come from E.' side of Prufrock.

I fully concur. It is undeniable that a writer has to get his material
from his own experience. There are enough thumb prints all over Eliot's
work to let us know when the possum is peeking through. I think it is
in E. Martin Browne's book on the plays, that E. is reported as suggest-
ing that Charles of FAMILY REUNION is something of a self-portrait.
Charles is obviously a cousin of Prufrock. Still, to say that J.A.P.
is a full self-portrait of E. just doesn't hang for me. Even the physical
characteristics don't match. Eliot had a good crop of hair in 1918.
He is known to have been an active ballroom dancer. He was a bit
standoffish, supposedly, but was very charming with people who got
to know him. He liked to dress as a city gentleman, maybe even a bit
of a dandy, judging by the pictures. Prufrock's dress is upper or
upper middle class. Admittedly, Prufrock is a Bostonian, but he fits
in well in English society -- as did whole segments of New England
society. One thing he does do in common with Eliot, is go slumming.
Prufrock is a clever mask.

Eliot makes the point ("Marie Lloyd" and elsewhere) that the real morality
of English society is in the lower classes. His favorite example is
the music hall. Good and bad, making real moral choices in either
direction were alive for the suburban (Parisan faubourgs) classes.
That's where Eliot went for his inspiration. Prufrock sits in an
anaesthetic stupor in a drawing room. Real voices (ie human, ie,
from the alive, lower classes) wake him from that stupor, and he is
lost. That's not Eliot! It is however, the state of mind of whole
rhinoceros herd of modern people. Prufrock is their touchstone.
Such people can easily be women, as well as men. Obviously E.
didn't know Viv when he wrote P., but that doesn't mean she couldn't
have had a lot of P.'s characteristics re indecision and self-proccupa-
tion. I suppose one could really bluesky it and explore the idea that
P. holds some of E's anima qualities (in the Jungian sense). Perhaps
Viv was attractive to him because she had similar qualities.
It wouldn't be the first time that a writer has used his work to
explore the recessive (note I didn't say repressed) sides of
his personality.

Is Steven Daedalus (aka Stephen Hero) James Joyce? Not by a long
shot, even though there are enormous resemblances in life experience.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 17:48:03 1996
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From: James F Loucks <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: re:check
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:47:46 -0500 (EST)
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To Jack Kolb:  Thanks for the feedback. I remember you from UVA. Also, if Tim 
Redman is looking: congrats on your move to Texas from OSU. Liked your Pound 
book. Well researched and thorough.  Cheers.  James Loucks.  
[log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 19:14:59 1996
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia
To: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:14:22 -0600
Subject: Re: peter
Reply-to: Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>
CC: <[log in to unmask]>
Priority: normal
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> I don't know what this means, but I complained to the list owner
> about peter's latest anti-americanism & I got dropped from the list!
> I'm glad though.  I think I'll make it a rule to drop whatever list
> he shows up on!  
> 
> Nice talking to you!
> 
> Virginia
> 
Virginia (et al.)--

I don't know what this means, either.  I got your note
complaining about Peter's tone in the same mail in which  I got
the above.  I just did a list review, and you're still
subscribed. In any case, I certainly wouldn't respond to a
complaint by dropping you from the list.  The only people I've
dropped from the list were some whose addresses were generating
dozens of error messages--and they're free to resubscribe from
any valid address.

As to the question of censorship or list moderation, as you know,
I would much prefer for TSE to remain an open forum.  This does
NOT mean that anything goes, regardless of its tone or content;
but except in extreme cases, regulation must come from the TSE
community itself--i.e., us--rather than from a dictatorial
authority.  To me, this is part of the spirit of the Internet,
which someone (I forget who) has called the only functionally
stable anarchy ever to grace the planet.

In short, if the TSE community as a whole is offended by Peter's
(or anyone's) posts, we should speak up for ourselves, to each
other and to him.  At the same time, I hope he and each of us
will make an effort not to alienate any part of our community. 
This is basic netiquette.

I would be very sorry to lose your membership on the list,
Virginia.  I've enjoyed your contributions. If you unsubscribe,
though, it will be your own choice, not some sort of disciplinary
action on my part. 

Greg Foster
***************************************************************************
Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]> * http://www.missouri.edu/~enggf/
Coordinator, "Turbo" English Sections * Listowner, TSE, the T.S.Eliot List
***************************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 21:11:22 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 22:11:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: peter
To: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
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On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Virginia A Conn wrote:

> I don't know what this means, but I complained to the list owner
> about peter's latest anti-americanism & I got dropped from the list!
> I'm glad though.  I think I'll make it a rule to drop whatever list
> he shows up on!  
> 
> Nice talking to you!
> 
> Virginia
> 
				***

					16 February 1996

Dear Virginia,

	Please forgive a bit of collegial intrusion, but your last post, 
as it were, leaves an unpleasantly discordant residue to drift (along 
with our presently mounting mantle of snow here in Washington) onto this 
valued enterprise of our friends in Missouri and their appreciators 
worldwide.  The implications of your having "complained to the list 
owner," your charges of "anti-americanism" (sic), and the rustle of 
flounced fabric as you exit our stage compel a reply.

	First, the mere appearance of the label "anti-American" (by U.S. 
custom, capitalized) in a forum serving scholars and other men and women 
to whom the life of the mind and heart matter deeply must send shudders 
of revulsion coursing through the memories of more than a few of your 
former list colleagues.  For many of us old enough to have lived through 
the era in which it rose to ignominy, that phrase evokes a chilling 
panoply of mindless reductionism and savage cowardice.  The words echo 
dully beyond their patent and fatuous jingoism to recall cruel and 
unbridled abuse of power by misguided and wicked little men who wreaked 
across these United States grave and lasting injury on uncounted citizens 
guilty of nothing more than spirited inquiry and passionate devotion to 
worthy ideals.

	Like all demagogic language, the phrase "anti-American" bears the 
inherent flaw of imprecision.  You may have meant the term to wear some 
fresh and innocent garb, as a witty neologism perhaps, (such subtlety may 
have been shared in your off-list complaint if not with us). Perhaps you 
employed "anti-americanism" casually and gave no more thought to its 
meaning, implications, or resonance for its likely audience than you did 
to its capitalization. Or perhaps you meant to shroud it in the dark 
cloak it still wears for many people in this country and worldwide.  None 
of the possibilities compliments you or your readers.

	In the familiar tradition of such language abuse, you invoke your 
label with grave disregard for definition or implication.  Since we 
possess no evidence from you to ascertain your intent, we may reasonably 
look for some generally accepted meaning to evaluate the merits of your 
charge.  The current edition of the American Heritage Dictionary offers 
this definition of _anti-American_: "Opposed or hostile to the 
government, official policies, or people of the United States."  

	In reviewing Mr. Montgomery's relevant posts, I am unable to 
discover even a hint of anything that might by letter or spirit conform 
to such a definition.  His characterization of the War of 1812, for 
instance, we might find a trifle revisionist, or even goofy, but 
something short of anti-American.  And even the House Un-American 
Activities Committee yahoos cut Canadians some slack.  We are left to 
wonder what you may have meant in your complaint. 

	Second, the notion of "complaining to the list owners" suggests 
the operation of an authoritarianism on its face wholly antithetical not 
only to the enabling presumption of lists of this sort (indeed of the 
Internet itself) but inimical to all principles of scholarly enquiry. 
Your actions suggest your ignorance that certain presumptions operate 
within the community of scholars, and most particularly within its 
subsets of "literature."  These presumptions range from the odiousness of 
alien authority, a necessarily wide-ranging latitude of enquiry, implicit 
tolerance of unpopular points of view, and the nurturance of generosity 
of spirit.  Not to mention humor, irony, and the sustaining ability to 
laugh at oneself.

	Third (and before you subscribe to any more lists with or without 
Mr. Montgomery's presence), you may wish to assess a phenomenon operant 
in computer technology and its emergent cultures. That is the social and 
psychological dynamic of communications among computer users, very much a 
work-in-progress.  In its current state this whole e-mail/Internet 
project is an authentically new thing, and not yet always pleasing to 
those making its acquaintance.

	You've surely noticed that what happens between you and your 
computer screen differs in many and profound ways from what happens 
between you and a printed (or handwritten) page.  The differences show up 
most alarmingly in the accelerated arena of the Internet.  The calm 
reflection and formal rituals that once generally mediated (and 
"gentled") yesterday's traditional communication transactions have 
vanished in the silent whiz of hurtling electrons.

	Discourse here no longer operates in all the old familiar ways.  
Nor have suitable conventions emerged to accomplish the modulating 
influences of formal courtesy, reflective interludes, and the like of 
epistolary or published dialogue--or even the imperfect subtlety possible 
in telephonic  exchange.  The (perhaps) temporary absence of these 
intermediating mechanics is one of the trade-offs inherent in the 
immediacy, indeed instantaneity, of Internet-style discourse in its 
present plasticity.

	And so our sensitivities as communicators are being tested.  The
flash of indignation, the quick zinger of annoyance, mounting umbrage,
anger and the momentary hurt that can explode in little puffs in our
psyches as we read the swift stuff of quick posts, are in part the result
of both the mediums's speed and our functional anonymity generated behind
the "Monitor Mask."  And all those gentling body language things we
emanate in person to let others know that we are sympathetically
listening, that we are eager to learn our companions' views, are not--for
most of us, anyway--reinstated with little happy faces at message end. 
And so, to compensate for this technology's mechanical indifference, we
must exercise the requisite patience, empathy, humor, and understanding. 
This "hot" emerging medium wants a great deal of tolerance and generosity
and imagination if we are to make it work adequately for us. 

	Fourth is your implicitly censorious presumption that the
progenitors of this list might share your views.  And what, we may wonder,
were the good Missourians to do with the offending Mr. Montgomery?  The
imagination runs riot . . . 

	Fifth, another point of view.  Indeed, so far from being "anti-" 
anything, Mr. Montgomery's wide-ranging and spirited participation on this
list has seemed to some of us extraordinarily generous, if not always to
our personal sensibility at the moment.  Sure, our friend is now and again
too quick off the launch pad, sometimes a bit facile, occasionally over
the top. And sometimes it's annoying.  But by and large, this fellow's
wealth of information and intriguing analysis are constructive and
salutary.  It's my personal view that the "Cheers, Peter" on-line persona
probably reflects an electronically demoderated style deriving from
instructor-scholar discourse habits developed in the classroom and at the
seminar table.  In those settings, the presence of colleagues would
operationally modulate each participant's input and style into a
functional--and agreeable--dynamic.  That such idiosyncratic stylistics
might abrade your delicate Buffalo sense of decorum seems a very small
sacrifice indeed for the wealth of the man's input.  But surely not worth
a trip to the principal's office. Better you had followed the example of
our good Tosca's occasional chidings: "Ah, Peter, Peter . . ." 

	Still more cogently looms the reality that information and 
observation, erudition and opinion, wisdom and intellectual passion are 
cherishable gifts in critically short supply in these perilous times. 
Able men and women willing to share such gifts are rather to be lauded 
than excoriated.  Godspeed.

				PWS
				Washington, DC
					

 
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 22:07:34 1996
Received: from lictor.acsu.buffalo.edu ([log in to unmask] [128.205.7.4]) by mail.missouri.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA45560 for <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 22:07:32 -0600
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:07:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: peter
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I KNEW I WAS GOING TO BE FLAMED!

To Mr Sonnenberg & all of you who have written to compare me to
McCarthy et al, let me state that the message was posted by Christine
Norstrand on a personal e-mail to her...she took it upon herself to make 
my private correspondence to her public.  She wanted this forum
without being the instigator.  

I am trying to get off this list...I dared not say that because peter
is already on record as advocating torturing those of us who do
not keep endless records.   I have been on a list (post-modern
something) with peter & he was virtually the only correspondent.  

I just want off this list
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 22:08:50 1996
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	id XAA01386; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:08:16 -0500
Date: 16 Feb 96 23:06:00 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: freedom of speech
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

I would just like to say that I fully agree with Paul Sonnenburg's response to
Virginia Conn.  The kind of behaviour she has demonstrated in her complaint and
in her posting is exactly what gives Americans a bad name abroad.  The United
States was founded by by visionary people with a number of noble ideals, one of
which was freedom of expression.  We betray our founders, and ourselves, by
attempting to limit the freedom of others to say things we don't happen to agree
with.  There are still a few of us around who deeply believe that to be American
is to be willing to defend individual freedoms, most particularly the right to
freedom of speech.  Attempting to suppress that freedom has to be the ultimate
anti-American activity.

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 22:17:52 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:17:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Virginia A Conn <[log in to unmask]>
To: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: peter
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I hope you're happy Christine.
From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 22:24:28 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:21:05 -0500
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (tosca)
Subject: RE: Peter and Paul.
X-Mailer: <Windows Eudora Version 2.0.2>

Dear Paul,

     You have an amazing and wonderful gift for words.  Thank you.  I
couldn't have said it better myself.  And, I'll bet Peter couldn't have
either!<g>

Cheerio,

Tosca
>
>On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Virginia A Conn wrote:
>
>> I don't know what this means, but I complained to the list owner
>> about peter's latest anti-americanism & I got dropped from the list!
>> I'm glad though.  I think I'll make it a rule to drop whatever list
>> he shows up on!  
>> 
>> Nice talking to you!
>> 
>> Virginia
>> 
>				***
>
>					16 February 1996
>
>Dear Virginia,
>
>	Please forgive a bit of collegial intrusion, but your last post, 
>as it were, leaves an unpleasantly discordant residue to drift (along 
>with our presently mounting mantle of snow here in Washington) onto this 
>valued enterprise of our friends in Missouri and their appreciators 
>worldwide.  The implications of your having "complained to the list 
>owner," your charges of "anti-americanism" (sic), and the rustle of 
>flounced fabric as you exit our stage compel a reply.
>
>	First, the mere appearance of the label "anti-American" (by U.S. 
>custom, capitalized) in a forum serving scholars and other men and women 
>to whom the life of the mind and heart matter deeply must send shudders 
>of revulsion coursing through the memories of more than a few of your 
>former list colleagues.  For many of us old enough to have lived through 
>the era in which it rose to ignominy, that phrase evokes a chilling 
>panoply of mindless reductionism and savage cowardice.  The words echo 
>dully beyond their patent and fatuous jingoism to recall cruel and 
>unbridled abuse of power by misguided and wicked little men who wreaked 
>across these United States grave and lasting injury on uncounted citizens 
>guilty of nothing more than spirited inquiry and passionate devotion to 
>worthy ideals.
>
>	Like all demagogic language, the phrase "anti-American" bears the 
>inherent flaw of imprecision.  You may have meant the term to wear some 
>fresh and innocent garb, as a witty neologism perhaps, (such subtlety may 
>have been shared in your off-list complaint if not with us). Perhaps you 
>employed "anti-americanism" casually and gave no more thought to its 
>meaning, implications, or resonance for its likely audience than you did 
>to its capitalization. Or perhaps you meant to shroud it in the dark 
>cloak it still wears for many people in this country and worldwide.  None 
>of the possibilities compliments you or your readers.
>
>	In the familiar tradition of such language abuse, you invoke your 
>label with grave disregard for definition or implication.  Since we 
>possess no evidence from you to ascertain your intent, we may reasonably 
>look for some generally accepted meaning to evaluate the merits of your 
>charge.  The current edition of the American Heritage Dictionary offers 
>this definition of _anti-American_: "Opposed or hostile to the 
>government, official policies, or people of the United States."  
>
>	In reviewing Mr. Montgomery's relevant posts, I am unable to 
>discover even a hint of anything that might by letter or spirit conform 
>to such a definition.  His characterization of the War of 1812, for 
>instance, we might find a trifle revisionist, or even goofy, but 
>something short of anti-American.  And even the House Un-American 
>Activities Committee yahoos cut Canadians some slack.  We are left to 
>wonder what you may have meant in your complaint. 
>
>	Second, the notion of "complaining to the list owners" suggests 
>the operation of an authoritarianism on its face wholly antithetical not 
>only to the enabling presumption of lists of this sort (indeed of the 
>Internet itself) but inimical to all principles of scholarly enquiry. 
>Your actions suggest your ignorance that certain presumptions operate 
>within the community of scholars, and most particularly within its 
>subsets of "literature."  These presumptions range from the odiousness of 
>alien authority, a necessarily wide-ranging latitude of enquiry, implicit 
>tolerance of unpopular points of view, and the nurturance of generosity 
>of spirit.  Not to mention humor, irony, and the sustaining ability to 
>laugh at oneself.
>
>	Third (and before you subscribe to any more lists with or without 
>Mr. Montgomery's presence), you may wish to assess a phenomenon operant 
>in computer technology and its emergent cultures. That is the social and 
>psychological dynamic of communications among computer users, very much a 
>work-in-progress.  In its current state this whole e-mail/Internet 
>project is an authentically new thing, and not yet always pleasing to 
>those making its acquaintance.
>
>	You've surely noticed that what happens between you and your 
>computer screen differs in many and profound ways from what happens 
>between you and a printed (or handwritten) page.  The differences show up 
>most alarmingly in the accelerated arena of the Internet.  The calm 
>reflection and formal rituals that once generally mediated (and 
>"gentled") yesterday's traditional communication transactions have 
>vanished in the silent whiz of hurtling electrons.
>
>	Discourse here no longer operates in all the old familiar ways.  
>Nor have suitable conventions emerged to accomplish the modulating 
>influences of formal courtesy, reflective interludes, and the like of 
>epistolary or published dialogue--or even the imperfect subtlety possible 
>in telephonic  exchange.  The (perhaps) temporary absence of these 
>intermediating mechanics is one of the trade-offs inherent in the 
>immediacy, indeed instantaneity, of Internet-style discourse in its 
>present plasticity.
>
>	And so our sensitivities as communicators are being tested.  The
>flash of indignation, the quick zinger of annoyance, mounting umbrage,
>anger and the momentary hurt that can explode in little puffs in our
>psyches as we read the swift stuff of quick posts, are in part the result
>of both the mediums's speed and our functional anonymity generated behind
>the "Monitor Mask."  And all those gentling body language things we
>emanate in person to let others know that we are sympathetically
>listening, that we are eager to learn our companions' views, are not--for
>most of us, anyway--reinstated with little happy faces at message end. 
>And so, to compensate for this technology's mechanical indifference, we
>must exercise the requisite patience, empathy, humor, and understanding. 
>This "hot" emerging medium wants a great deal of tolerance and generosity
>and imagination if we are to make it work adequately for us. 
>
>	Fourth is your implicitly censorious presumption that the
>progenitors of this list might share your views.  And what, we may wonder,
>were the good Missourians to do with the offending Mr. Montgomery?  The
>imagination runs riot . . . 
>
>	Fifth, another point of view.  Indeed, so far from being "anti-" 
>anything, Mr. Montgomery's wide-ranging and spirited participation on this
>list has seemed to some of us extraordinarily generous, if not always to
>our personal sensibility at the moment.  Sure, our friend is now and again
>too quick off the launch pad, sometimes a bit facile, occasionally over
>the top. And sometimes it's annoying.  But by and large, this fellow's
>wealth of information and intriguing analysis are constructive and
>salutary.  It's my personal view that the "Cheers, Peter" on-line persona
>probably reflects an electronically demoderated style deriving from
>instructor-scholar discourse habits developed in the classroom and at the
>seminar table.  In those settings, the presence of colleagues would
>operationally modulate each participant's input and style into a
>functional--and agreeable--dynamic.  That such idiosyncratic stylistics
>might abrade your delicate Buffalo sense of decorum seems a very small
>sacrifice indeed for the wealth of the man's input.  But surely not worth
>a trip to the principal's office. Better you had followed the example of
>our good Tosca's occasional chidings: "Ah, Peter, Peter . . ." 
>
>	Still more cogently looms the reality that information and 
>observation, erudition and opinion, wisdom and intellectual passion are 
>cherishable gifts in critically short supply in these perilous times. 
>Able men and women willing to share such gifts are rather to be lauded 
>than excoriated.  Godspeed.
>
>				PWS
>				Washington, DC
>					
>
> 
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Fri Feb 16 22:37:37 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:37:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Christine R. Gray" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: lost posting?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I posted a message about Eliot's Fragment of an Agon about two weeks 
ago.  It has not been posted.  Is there a long delay time on this list?  
thank you, christine gray
[log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 00:35:23 1996
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 id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Fri,
 16 Feb 1996 22:34:36 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 22:34:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: peter
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Friday, 16 Feb 1996, at 22:11:17,
thus spake Paul Sonnenburg:

PS>	Please forgive a bit of collegial intrusion, but your last post, 
PS>as it were, leaves an unpleasantly discordant residue to drift (along 
PS>with our presently mounting mantle of snow here in Washington) onto this 
PS>valued enterprise of our friends in Missouri and their appreciators 
PS>worldwide.  The implications of your having "complained to the list 
PS>owner," your charges of "anti-americanism" (sic), and the rustle of 
PS>flounced fabric as you exit our stage compel a reply.

Paul, this is something of a minor master piece. Absent the personalities
and names from it and you have, almost a charter for internet exchange.
I am moved.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 00:57:43 1996
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 id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Fri,
 16 Feb 1996 22:56:15 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 22:56:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Peter and Paul.
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Friday, 16 Feb 1996, at 23:21:05,
thus spake tosca:

t>     You have an amazing and wonderful gift for words.  Thank you.  I
t>couldn't have said it better myself.  And, I'll bet Peter couldn't have
t>either!<g>

Your very right. My mother was from the US, but nothing like that
ever rubbed off on me. Besides which, in my latest little bit of
off-the-wallness, I thought I was poking a big jab at the ignorance
of a British critic who hadn't paid any attention to the influence
of the French symbolists, which would have happened with or without
Pound and Eliot.

I refuse to speak in any seriously pejorative manner of
any individual on this list and I refuse to defend myself except a
bit off the cuff. I will revert to a previous remark, which opened
an earlier nerve. Some one asked the question, is Eliot, as poet,
English or American? If that is a valid question on this list, than
the possibility that he was an English poet (I wouldn't go so far as
to say British, 'cause he never identified much with the Celts),
has to be given its fair hearing. To interpret such assertions
as being anti-us is to suggest that .... he is even more beloved
by his native country than I already knew. My exchange professorship
in PA was to teach Eliot.

What I'm waiting for is Christine Norstrand to tell us about her
experiences when she had the great privilege of having Hugh Kenner
as a teacher.

See, I really don't want the list to get off focus, but just as there
can be tonic and a-tonic modes, there should also be Eliotonic banter,
not academic snipping. If we have to be overly serious, a superficially
respectful ALL the time, then it is we who dare not to compress the
world into a ball, to roll it to some overwhelming question. I'm all
for eternal footmen who hold coats and snicker.

Right now I'm somewhat in awe of Paul Sonnenburg.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 01:11:19 1996
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 id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Fri,
 16 Feb 1996 23:10:41 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:10:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: peter
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Friday, 16 Feb 1996, at 19:14:22,
thus spake Greg Foster:

GF>In short, if the TSE community as a whole is offended by Peter's
GF>(or anyone's) posts, we should speak up for ourselves, to each
GF>other and to him.  At the same time, I hope he and each of us
GF>will make an effort not to alienate any part of our community. 
GF>This is basic netiquette.

And people have been speaking up for themselves.
So far the count, including posts both on and off the
list, is about 15 for and 7 against.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 03:52:12 1996
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 id <[log in to unmask]> for [log in to unmask]; Fri,
 16 Feb 1996 23:00:00 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:00:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: peter
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Friday, 16 Feb 1996, at 23:07:29,
thus spake Virginia A Conn:

VA>I am trying to get off this list...I dared not say that because peter
VA>is already on record as advocating torturing those of us who do
VA>not keep endless records.   I have been on a list (post-modern
VA>something) with peter & he was virtually the only correspondent.  

I indicated the practise on my list, at the pleasure of my list members,
in case it was appropriate here. I could well believe it is not.

I haven't sent a post to the post-modern list in so long, I can't
remember the last time.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 06:36:28 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:34:51 +0000
Subject: re: peter
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I have a new lifetime ambition: to get Mr Montgomery to agree with me!

He can come round to our house for tea any time he wants.

Thanks for the extremely erudite, good mannered and good humoured 
critcism.  
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 06:36:31 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:34:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Tiresias
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> 
> Is Steven Daedalus (aka Stephen Hero) James Joyce? Not by a long
> shot, even though there are enormous resemblances in life experience.
> 
>
I always understood that Stephen Daedalus was JJ but that Stephen 
Dedalus wasn't.  Shem the Penman may well have been. 
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 06:36:33 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:34:51 +0000
Subject: Re: TSE: english and american poetry
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> I know! Eliot simply discovered a secret cache of Poe's work
> and with the help of Arthur Symons dribbled it out, bit by bit.
> It's a conspiracy, I tell you. It's enough to rot the petals
> off Le Fleur du Mal (wasn't he a hockey player for the St. Louis
> Blues?). That's why Eliot worked in a bank. He said somewhere
> that  poetry is a mug's game, as Gomez sez in THE ELDER STATESMAN
> that forgery is a mug's game. I guess that means that LaForguery
> is even more of a mug's game. A bank would give him lots of models
> to forge a head.
> 
> People shouldn't tempt me like this. I have no will power to
> restrain myself (because I do not hope to strain again).
>

But your'e so amusing when tempted !

What I was trying to say was not that TSE was secretly rilfling the 
vaults of POEtry, although EP did once suggest to him that he, EP, 
should throw bricks through the front window whilst he, TSE, went in 
through the back door to steal the family silver, but that neither 
TSE nor EP ever really got to grips with Poe who was more of an 
innovator than they generally appreciated. He invented the modern 
detective story, the modern horror story, the modern science-fiction 
story, the modern poet-critic story (did he write the Raven then the 
commentary or the commentary then the poem?), the modern cosmological 
prose-poem.

Nor did they for instance get to grips with the Wordsworth who wrote 
the best Prelude, i.e. the 1805 version which was not published until 
1926 by Ernest de Selincourt which was probably too late for TSE and 
EP.  Now if you want a conspiracy there is one and one of Hobsbaum's 
theses is that the non-publication of the Prelude by Wordworth during 
his lifetime on the grounds that it was " unprecendented in literary 
history that a man should talk so much about himself" caused a 
funadental shift in focus in english writing from the long poem 
to the novel.  Hardy could be seen after a lifetime of novel writing 
trying to shift the tradition back, a point which EP notes somewhere 
appreciatively.

An interesting parallel might be found in theology where for many 
centuries Mark's gospel was considered to be a later precis of 
Matthew's and John's gospel to be very late greek metaphysics.  The current 
view is that both Mark and John are very early, albeit in different 
traditions, and that John is almost certainly derived from a first 
hand witness.  Another example might be the gnostic Gospel of Thomas 
(supposedly doubting Thomas, one of Jesus's brother, hence the level 
of doubt) which was only unearthed in 1945 in Egypt.

I don't think that there is conspiracy in any of this, it's just how 
it is.  Thomas was a gnostic and gnostics were bad news in the first 
century church.  Wordsworth's 1805 Prelude is a dangerous piece of 
writing and he bottled out of publishing it.  But I think that once 
these supressed texts come out it behoves contemporary criticism to 
come to terms with them since they rearrange the order of the 
monuments as much as any new work does.

                                        "Of genius, power,
            Creation, and divinity itself,
            I have been speaking, for my theme has been
            What passed within me........
            This is in truth heroic argument........

            (1805, III, 171-74,182)
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 08:47:54 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:44:36 +0000
Subject: re:peter
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I think that I was the ignorant British Critic who started things 
off.

As I said in my intro I have never studied any sort of literature 
having gone through a maths, philosophy, accounting, taxation, church 
and now theology study route.  My interest in literature is a 
committment to literature as essential to the complete life.  This 
can be problematic.  I have been told that many people switch off 
when I preach because I bring in poetry and yet how can you begin to 
read the Bible without some knowledge of poetry and I would say vice 
versa but would then probably court an equal switch off by the literati.
(My own lodestone here is The Great Code by Northrop Frye.)

I am therefore flattered by being referred to as a British Critic, if 
indeed it was me, but hurt by being called ignorant, although I must 
confess to being so!  Sticks and stones may break my bones but words 
can completely destroy me. 

I have recently acquired the University of California Press dual language 
version of Stepane Mallarme's poems translated by Henry Weinfield 
published in 1994 and shall begin to rectify my ignorance of the 
French symbolists. I have also begun reading Owen, Rosenburg
and Hardy.   One does try.

If I think that a particular issue or a particular contributor is not 
worth a double click then I can hit delete.  Isn't this the beauty of 
the medium?  Also if you venture an opinion in a forum of complete 
stangers many of whom have made a career in the study of literature 
then you must risk the charge of ignorance and irrelevance.  But if 
we in the certain half-deserted streets cannot seek correction and 
guidance from our literary betters without the charge of ignorance
then what are we to do  ? Isn't this also the beauty of the medium?

As for the issues I have raised re English v USian traditions and the 
place of Eliot and Poe in these and the whole question of Modernism v 
Post-Modernism I must confess that I don't feel that the questions I 
have raised so far have been adequately addressed.   These issues 
have been raised in my mind by Kenner in A Sinking Island (funnily 
enough first read just off Russell Square where TSE worked for 25 years, as 
I recall from the placque on the wall, for Faber & Gwyer), Hobsbaum's 
book and the general feeling that something has gone wrong within the 
Anglican tradition (and surely part of what has gone wrong is the 
dissociation of sensibility that has taken poetry of the streets and 
out of the churches and into the ghettoes of academia).  I wait patiently.

Anyway I have just received through snailmail an A- for a piece on 
the five meanings of eiraynay in the greek NT so Shantih, Shantih, Shantih.

IBC
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 09:18:13 1996
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From: James F Loucks <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: postings
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 10:18:05 -0500 (EST)
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To Greg Foster:  Sorry to bother you again, but not all of my postings seem to
get through. I sent a 16 February message which did not show, while some 17
February contributions have been posted. Should I assume that there's a delay 
factor; i.e., a queue?  Thanks for your help.  Regards,  James Loucks
[log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 09:51:41 1996
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From: James F Loucks <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: peter
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 10:51:38 -0500 (EST)
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The recent exchanges over Peter Montgomery are bemusing. They seem to be 
assuming the form of an "Anti-List Virus" which threatens to displace Old
Possum as discussion focus. Perhaps (a good Eliotic word!) the input of some of
the 100-odd other subscribers would help neutralize this ALV before too many 
folks unsubscribe.

Having said the above, I totally agree with whoever spoke up for free speech. 
All I am saying is that we might let TSE resume center stage.

Regards to all,       James Loucks      [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 10:38:13 1996
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:38:01 -0800
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Christine <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: peter

At 11:07 PM 2/16/96 -0500, Virginia Conn wrote:
>I KNEW I WAS GOING TO BE FLAMED!
>
>To Mr Sonnenberg & all of you who have written to compare me to
>McCarthy et al, let me state that the message was posted by Christine
>Norstrand on a personal e-mail to her...she took it upon herself to make 
>my private correspondence to her public.  She wanted this forum
>without being the instigator.  
>
Well, she's right, you know.  It was horrible netiquette to post private
correspondence.  I am sincerely sorry that it caused her such unhappiness.  

On the other hand, if the list-owner was such a Peter fan, I wanted that
revealed.  


For Virginia (and those who send unsubscribe requests to the list):

You are an adult.  You can unsubscribe yourself.  Send an unsubscribe
request to the listserv at lists.missouri.edu.  

To Peter and Paul and your ilk,

Is securing the academic hydrant pissing championship really worthy this?
Are you really men of such dark vision that you miss that your demonstrated
competence at hurting / dominating/ suppressing one person doesn't stop
there but travels in a nefarious thread indefinitely?  

Certainly, Virginia's objections were not solely the result of an
anti-American comment.  Rather they were grew from a multitude of remarks
whose clear intention was not to suggest an alternative viewpoint but to
expose the original speaker as some totally "other", much less inferior,
subhuman being.  

Yes, you are "best".  But at what?

From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 11:47:12 1996
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:46:58 -0500
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: peter

In a message dated 96-02-17 12:07:02 EST, Christine Norstrand writes:

>
>Certainly, Virginia's objections were not solely the result of an
>anti-American comment.  Rather they were grew from a multitude of remarks
>whose clear intention was not to suggest an alternative viewpoint but to
>expose the original speaker as some totally "other", much less inferior,
>subhuman being.  
>
>

I cannot under any circumstances endorse or commend the publication without
permission of private communication. A public apology to Virginia Conn is in
order here.

In character with whatever interventionist spirit inspired you to post
Virginia Conn's corresponsdence publicly without her permission are your
comments quoted above. It is quite a liberty you have taken to interpret for
Virginia, Peter, and Paul what each really meant. I, personally, am at a loss
to discover which of the posts published here on this list could possibly
fall into the category of 

>a multitude of remarks
>whose clear intention was not to suggest an alternative viewpoint but to
>expose the original speaker as some totally "other", much less inferior,
>subhuman being.  

If such is your own personal objection, then please be precise --- about who
objects to precisely what and on what grounds. I hope we will all hold
ourselves to such a basic standard of exchange.

        Best regards,

              Gabrielle Loperfido
              Alexandria, Virginia
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 12:33:08 1996
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From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Missouri-Columbia
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:32:24 -0600
Subject: Re: peter
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Christine said:
> On the other hand, if the list-owner was such a Peter fan, I wanted that
> revealed.  
> 

The list owner is a "fan" of interesting online conversation,
full of ideas, opinions, questions, unexpected connections, wit,
and strong feelings about poetry in general and TSE in
particular.  Consequently, I find Peter good company and am
delighted to have him on the list.  Nonetheless, let me repeat
that I did NOT kick Virginia off the list for complaining about
him.  She was subscribed without a break until last night, when 
she signed off of her own volition.

The list owner will now make himself another cup of coffee and 
get back to work.  Until my next e-mail break, I am remaindered

Yours,

Greg Foster
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>   -   Listowner, TSE  -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- "[Eliot's] own life, he felt, half ruefully, had been like a  -
- Dostoevsky novel written by Middleton Murry." -- V. Eliot     -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 13:39:13 1996
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:44:14 -0800
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Paul means little, as in petty
From: Alexander Justice <[log in to unmask]>
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>Paul, this is something of a minor master piece. Absent the personalities
>and names from it and you have, almost a charter for internet exchange.
>I am moved.
>
>Cheers,
>Peter

Dear TSErs,

It is almost impossible to believe that I've seen two letters now 
praising this hackneyed, pompous, and condescending note. I thought for a 
moment that I'd been transported somehow to pre-primary New Hampshire. 
Why was it posted to the list, and not to the person to whom it was 
addressed? It is very inconsiderate to force everyone on a list to read 
about  personal squabbles. If Paul's intent was to teach everyone a 
history lesson in liberal democracy, then his arrogance and ego must be 
each the same size: extra large.

Alexander Justice * [log in to unmask] * San Laku, California, USA

Recommended reading of the month:_Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism 
Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History" by Mary Lefkowitz










From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 13:56:16 1996
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:56:56 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: Re: peter   BRAVO!  NICELY PUT REMAINDER, I MEAN REJOINDER

>Christine said:
>> On the other hand, if the list-owner was such a Peter fan, I wanted that
>> revealed.
>>
>
>The list owner is a "fan" of interesting online conversation,
>full of ideas, opinions, questions, unexpected connections, wit,
>and strong feelings about poetry in general and TSE in
>particular.  Consequently, I find Peter good company and am
>delighted to have him on the list.  Nonetheless, let me repeat
>that I did NOT kick Virginia off the list for complaining about
>him.  She was subscribed without a break until last night, when
>she signed off of her own volition.
>
>The list owner will now make himself another cup of coffee and
>get back to work.  Until my next e-mail break, I am remaindered
>
>Yours,
>
>Greg Foster
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>- Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>   -   Listowner, TSE  -
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>- "[Eliot's] own life, he felt, half ruefully, had been like a  -
>- Dostoevsky novel written by Middleton Murry." -- V. Eliot     -
>-----------------------------------------------------------------

Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
(314) 882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 14:46:06 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Christine <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: peter

At 12:46 PM 2/17/96 -0500, Gabrielle Loperfido wrote:
>
>I cannot under any circumstances endorse or commend the publication without
>permission of private communication. A public apology to Virginia Conn is in
>order here.
>
Please actually read the post to which you responded.  I just did that, Miss
Manners.  

It amazes me that someone with your sensitivity to propriety could have
failed to miss the substance of the post.  



From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 15:55:51 1996
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Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: peter

In a message dated 96-02-17 15:47:37 EST, Christine Norstrand writes:

>>
>>I cannot under any circumstances endorse or commend the publication without
>>permission of private communication. A public apology to Virginia Conn is
in
>>order here.
>>
>Please actually read the post to which you responded.  I just did that,

I read quite clearly your sincere regrets that your actions caused Ms. Conn
pain. I did not anywhere read an apology for your actions. A minor, but not
insignificant difference. But, of course, all this matters very little now
that we have lost Ms. Conn from the list. 

            Gabrielle Loperfido
            Alexandria, Virginia
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 17:03:25 1996
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:02:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tiresias
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Saturday, 17 Feb 1996, at 12:34:51,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

>> Is Steven Daedalus (aka Stephen Hero) James Joyce? Not by a long
>> shot, even though there are enormous resemblances in life experience.
JC>I always understood that Stephen Daedalus was JJ but that Stephen 
JC>Dedalus wasn't.  Shem the Penman may well have been. 

Touche.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 17:20:30 1996
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Hello everyone.

     Hopefully now we have all have had our say with regard to the Virginia
episode, some of it hurtful unfortunately.

    We should all have it out of our system; may we now get back to the
purpose of this list and the reason we are here  - Thomas Stearns Eliot?

Pace.

Jackie aka Tosca

     


From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 18:35:44 1996
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 19:35:38 -0500 (EST)
From: "Christine R. Gray" <[log in to unmask]>
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The discussion of Professor Conn's comments is monotonous.   Can we please get 
back to the purpose of this list--TSE?!  I want to know if anyone has 
written or read or come across any materials on TSE's "Fragment of an 
Agon.  I would also like get feedback from this list on this poem.  
thanks, christine gray
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 21:35:36 1996
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 19:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE: english and american poetry
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On Saturday, 17 Feb 1996, at 12:34:51,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:


JC>But you're so amusing when tempted!
Don't say anything you might regret. I am easily carried away. :)

JC>What I was trying to say was not that TSE was secretly rilfling the 
JC>vaults of POEtry, although EP did once suggest to him that he, EP, 
POEtry -- very clever. I like it. Reminds me of Pound's `potry'

JC>should throw bricks through the front window whilst he, TSE, went in 
JC>through the back door to steal the family silver, but that neither 
I wonder if P. really is responsible for E.'s possum posture?
I think P. did invent that nickname, did he not?

JC>TSE nor EP ever really got to grips with Poe who was more of an 
JC>innovator than they generally appreciated. He invented the modern 
JC>detective story, the modern horror story, the modern science-fiction 
JC>story, the modern poet-critic story (did he write the Raven then the 
JC>commentary or the commentary then the poem?), the modern cosmological 
JC>prose-poem.
My McLuhan background here is jumping up and down and saying -- "Don't
forget the nagazine/serial periodical, folks!!!!" Was not Poe forced by
circumstances to write the small piece for serials? Not that that takes
away from his contribution. In fact I think it enhances it 10 fold.
He was forced by necessity to be quite a-ways aheaad of his time, and
he more than lived up to the challenge. So called main-stream stuff,
as far as prose goes (long live assonance), had to be long in order to
belong. Can we blame Ben Franklin for the popularity of the mag. rag
in the colonies? Would that have made it an essaentially New England
creation. (I don't mean the high soc. essay stuff like Tattler for
people of letters, I mean the pop. mag.).

Eliot did comnfess failure when it came to dealing as a critic with
Poe.

JC>Nor did they for instance get to grips with the Wordsworth who wrote 
JC>the best Prelude, i.e. the 1805 version which was not published until 
JC>1926 by Ernest de Selincourt which was probably too late for TSE and 
JC>EP.  Now if you want a conspiracy there is one and one of Hobsbaum's 
JC>theses is that the non-publication of the Prelude by Wordworth during 
JC>his lifetime on the grounds that it was " unprecendented in literary 
JC>history that a man should talk so much about himself" caused a 
JC>funadental shift in focus in english writing from the long poem 
JC>to the novel.  Hardy could be seen after a lifetime of novel writing 
JC>trying to shift the tradition back, a point which EP notes somewhere 
JC>appreciatively.
This is all news to me. My background in the Rheumantics
is pathetic; I am however reminded of the 20th C. resurrection
of Donne, and how inspiring that was for Eliot and Hemingway.

JC>An interesting parallel might be found in theology where for many 
JC>centuries Mark's gospel was considered to be a later precis of 
JC>Matthew's and John's gospel to be very late greek metaphysics.
And now there is Q, not as in Star Trek, but not unsimilar to the
long hidden UR-Waste Land.

JC>century church.  Wordsworth's 1805 Prelude is a dangerous piece of 
JC>writing and he bottled out of publishing it.  But I think that once 
JC>these supressed texts come out it behoves contemporary criticism to 
JC>come to terms with them since they rearrange the order of the 
JC>monuments as much as any new work does.

"And at my back from time to time...."
Amazing how the concept of "Tradition and the Individual Talent"
still fit right in. Hwo many revolutions was E. in on?
Poetry, criticism, poetic drama, naturalist poetic drama.
And he manages to fit right into musicals with Cats.
And wait til the jive talker hip-hoppers get a hold of
SWEENEY AGONISTES!

Perhaps E. will become known as "The Perennial Poet."

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 21:57:35 1996
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 19:56:58 -0700 (PDT)
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On Saturday, 17 Feb 1996, at 14:44:36,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>I think that I was the ignorant British Critic who started things 
JC>off.
Goodness, I am going to have to be more careful. I was talking
about HOGSBAUM and his complete ignoring of the influence of the
french symbolists. Present company was not intended.


JC>I am therefore flattered by being referred to as a British Critic, if 
JC>indeed it was me, but hurt by being called ignorant, although I must 
JC>confess to being so!
'Twasn't you, unless your name is a cover up for Hogsbaum.

JC>I have recently acquired the University of California Press dual language 
JC>version of Stepane Mallarme's poems translated by Henry Weinfield 
JC>published in 1994 and shall begin to rectify my ignorance of the 
JC>French symbolists.
The book that occasioned the excitment was Arthur Symons'. I don't
remember the exact title, but the central part of it is The French
Symbolists. Perhaps part of the problem is that the awareness seems
to have been funnelled through that one narrow bottleneck -- except
for the case of E., who went to look for himself (maybe others too --
but if so, I'm not aware of it.) Then there is the following:

      I think that from Baudelaire I learned first a precedent for the
      poetical  possibilities, never developed by any poet writing in my
      own language, of the more sordid aspects of the modern metropolis,
      of the possibility of fusion between the sordidly realistic and the
      phangtasmagoric, the possibility of the juxtaposition of the matter
      of fact and the fantastic. From him, as from Laforgue, I learned
      that the sort of  material that I had, the sort of experience that
      an adolescent had had, in an industrial city in America, could be
      the material for poetry; and that the source of new poetry might be
      found in what had been regarded hitherto as the impossible, the
      sterile, the intractably unpoetic. That, in fact, the business of
      the poet was to make poetry out of the unexplored resources of the
      unpoetical; that the poet, in fact, was committed by his profession
      to turn the unpoetical into poetry. A great poet can give a younger
      poet everything that he has to give him, in a very few lines. It may
      be that I am indebted to Baudelaire chiefly for half a dozen lines
      out of the whole of FLEURS DU MAL; and that his significance for me
      is summed up in the lines:
       	Fourmillante Cite, cite pleine dereves,
       	Ou le spectre en plein jour raccroche le passant...
      I knew what THAT meant, because I had lived it before I knew that I
      wanted to turn it into verse on my own account.
      ------------------------------------------------------------ 
      Eliot, T.S. "What Dante Means to Me." TO CRITICIZE THE CRITIC.
         London: Faber, 1965. 

JC>the medium?  Also if you venture an opinion in a forum of complete 
JC>stangers many of whom have made a career in the study of literature 
JC>then you must risk the charge of ignorance and irrelevance.

This is much of a special point. The medium is bringing all the little
pockets out of their various corners, all with their various styles, and
all really ignorant of each other except at an absurdly conceptual level.
So the style/approaches grate, and violate each others protocols. Esp.
is violated the political dynamic of departmental control, whereby the
top feeders keep the bottom feeders in their places. It can't be done
any more. That power is gone. It is very disturbing to the power mongers,
esp. in a fecund field like that of Eliot. That is why the idea of a
female Prufrock is VERY threatening. It hits far too close to home.
The forces of death here are being superceded. It reminds me of
a very un-Prufrock-like Eliot, who could be evben more peremptory
than yours truly:

from Eliot, T.S. "Observations." Egoist 5.5 (May, 1918):69.

What we want is to disturb and alarm the public, to upset its reliance
on Shakespeare, Nelson, Wellington, and Sir Isaac Newton, to point out
that at any moment the relation of a modern englishman to Shakespeare may
be discovered to be that of a modern Greek to Aeschylus.  To point out
that every generation, every turn of time when the work of four or five
men who count has reached middle age, is a crisis.  Also that the
intelligence of a nation must go on developing, or it will deteriorate;
and that every writer who does not help to develope the language is to
the extent to which he is read a positive agent of deterioration.  That
the forces of deterioration are a large crawling mass, and the forces
of develooment half a dozen men.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 22:05:07 1996
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 20:04:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: peter
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On Saturday, 17 Feb 1996, at 12:32:24,
thus spake Greg Foster:

GF>The list owner is a "fan" of interesting online conversation,
GF>full of ideas, opinions, questions, unexpected connections, wit,
GF>and strong feelings about poetry in general and TSE in
GF>particular.  Consequently, I find Peter good company and am
GF>delighted to have him on the list.  Nonetheless, let me repeat
GF>that I did NOT kick Virginia off the list for complaining about
GF>him.  She was subscribed without a break until last night, when 
GF>she signed off of her own volition.

The only regret I have about any of this, is the amount of mail
I have had to deal with. All of it positive in the past day.
I wish to thank all those who have taken the time to indicate,
not their agreement, but their reassurance that this great mind
dump I seem to be on is appropriate and desireable. I suspect
it is somewhat waning, now that I have covered a lot of the
ground. It's just my style to be confident about my learning,
even when I'm wrong. (Learning from errors is the OLDEST form
of education. I have a very large brief against the anti-
intellectualism of North America, and esp. in academia. In
a list on Eliot there can be NO ROOM for it at all.

Thanks for the positive indicator.

Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Sat Feb 17 22:23:56 1996
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 20:23:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "Fragment of an Agon"
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On Saturday, 17 Feb 1996, at 19:35:38,
thus spake Christine R. Gray:

CG>I want to know if anyone has 
CG>written or read or come across any materials on TSE's "Fragment of an 
CG>Agon.  I would also like get feedback from this list on this poem.  

I don't believe the snowbanks, Piled Higher and deeper, which I have had
to wade through to get to this on the topic point.

The first place to look is in Eliot's own writing, in THE USE OF
POETRY AND THE USE OF CRITICISM. London: Faber, 1933: 153f.

E. describes what he was up to with SWEENEY AGONISTES. It is
probably his first attempt at poetic drama. He was trying to
write on various levels at once for an audience of various
levels of learning and insight.

I'm curious as to why you want to examine only the "Fragment of an Agon"
and not SWEENEY AGONISTES as a whole. In order not to waste
time or get off track, I wonder if you could suggest what your
concerns are?

Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 00:35:33 1996
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Date: 18 Feb 96 01:32:13 EST
From: Andrew Howald <[log in to unmask]>
To: tse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: EP's scalpel, please
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

Paul Sonnenburg's response to Virginia was the most verbose THING I've ever
read.
A sort of masturbatory logorrhea  reminiscent  of old high school pranks.
It would surely have turned Eliot's stomach--and driven Pound to a frothy rage.
I appreciate
 this list, have found it most informative.  Boys, can we get back to the books?


Andrew

From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 03:22:03 1996
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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 01:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Discussing Eliot on the Internet
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	Our recent frakar set me to thinking about the nature
	of our activity and its effects on Eliot scholarship.
	Eliot has always had a way of being involved in the
	breaking of new ground. His work has been fecund ground,
	perhaps in ways that other writers' work hasn't or at least
	not to the same degree. The way Eliot is treated on the
	Internet may well herald the new styles of scholarship
	which the medium allows, and may toll the bell for some of
	our older ways of doing things.


	Consider that by free ranging, lively banter somebody, or
	several people to gether, or several people separately hit
	on a novell appraoch to an undiscussed theme or area of
	investigation, say the idea of a female Prufrock. And say
	that someone in his rabbit warren of a grad, or post grad,
	or fellowship, or porf's office, has hit upon that idea
	independently and is pursuing it for a paper, or book, or
	thesis or presentation of some sort. (Let's face it, Eliot
	has been a boon for those who live under the Damocles' sword
	of publish or perish), All of a sudden one's proprietary
	idea has disappeared. It is a common idea. One could even
	unjustly be accused of having lifted i 

From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 03:38:38 1996
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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 01:37:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
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Sorry. This got away from me, before I was finished.
Here it is entire. Skip to **** to pass over the previously
posted part.

	Our recent frakar set me to thinking about the nature
	of our activity and its effects on Eliot scholarship.
	Eliot has always had a way of being involved in the
	breaking of new ground. His work has been fecund territory,
	perhaps in ways that other writers' work hasn't or at least
	not to the same degree. The way Eliot is treated on the
	Internet may well herald the new styles of scholarship
	which the medium allows, and may toll the bell for some of
	our older ways of doing things.


	Consider that by free ranging, lively banter somebody, or
	several people together, or several people separately hit
	on a novel appraoch to an undiscussed theme or area of
	investigation, say the idea of a female Prufrock. And say
	that someone in his rabbit warren of a grad, or post grad,
	or fellowship, or prof's office, has hit upon that idea
	independently and is pursuing it for a paper, or book, or
	thesis or presentation of some sort. (Let's face it, Eliot
	has been a boon for those who live under the Damocles' sword
	of publish or perish). All of a sudden one's proprietary
	idea has disappeared. It is a common idea. **** One could even
	unjustly be accused of having lifted it from the Internet.

	Various consequences get played out. I leave them for the
	rest of the discussion. The one consequence that I like the
	least is that some pseudo-decorum of academic style is some-
	how imposed by those who don't want creative dialogue here.
	Various forms of social pressure could be brought to bear
	to intimidate the more Prufrock-like of our members. People
	would be talking down in a patronising way to suggest that
	such and such isn't really done. Pretty soon, any kind of
	discussion, that involved any kind of real information and
	creative development of connections, would be frozen out.
	One wouldn't be able to assert anything about Eliot if it had-
	n't alreay been published elsewhere, and could be supported,
	not by a reference to Eliot's text, but by a reference to
	some critic's text.

	Not a happy picture. And of course if such a practice were
	to succeed here, the idea would no doubt catch on elsewhere.

Cheers,
Peter
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*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 07:09:05 1996
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From: [log in to unmask] (George Simmers)
Subject: Re: "Fragment of an Agon"
X-Mailer: <PC Eudora Version 1.4>

  I want to know if anyone has 
>written or read or come across any materials on TSE's "Fragment of an 
>Agon. 

If you're interested in "Sweeney Agonistes" as drama, not just as poetry, 
then I recommend "Dances of Death: The Group Theatre of London in the 
Thirties" by Michael Sidnell (Faber: London 1984).

This describes Rupert Doone's November 1934 production by the Group (not the 
world premiere, which was at Vassar),  which was a highly theatrical piece 
of expressionist theatre,  with a quietly sinister performance by John Moody 
as a pin-striped respectable-looking Sweeney. Desmond MacCarthy describes him:

"You must imagine a man under a lamp sitting at a table...speaking the 
lines...with unemphatic horror, speaking out of himself, out of his inner 
terror."

The final chorus was spoken into tumblers to distort the sound, and the play 
ended  with a police whistle, a scream from Doris, a knocking at the door, 
and then blackout.

Sidnell quotes a conversation between Nevill Coghill and Eliot about the 
production:
"If Sweeney in the Group Theatre Rooms seemed to 'justify the ways of 
Crippen to woman' that must be what the work meant, Eliot allowed, even 
though that was not what *he* had meant at all. But though Eliot was at 
pains to point out on a number of occasions that Doone's production was 
'entirely alien' to his original conception, his high opinion of the 
production was not at all diminished by the difference. What he had actually 
meant was not discernible, or at least not producible, from the fragments as 
they stood. 'In order to be produced at all, in fact, with any effect, the 
fragments have to be interpreted differently from my original meaning,' he 
said later."

Sidwell suggests that that meaning is made clear in the scenario Eliot wrote 
for a re-jigged Sweeney A called The Superior Landlord, which ends with the 
resurrection of Mrs Porter after she's been murdered by Sweeney. (They are 
reunited to the strains of Mendelssohn's Wedding March.  So there's a final 
transcendence which is absent from the published fragments, brilliant as 
they are (just about my favourite bit of Eliot, actually).

The Superior Landlord scenario is among the Eliot papers at King's College 
Cambridge.  Sidwell paraphrases it interestingly  - but I wonder whether any 
list members know if it's been published in full?
George Simmers
SNAKESKIN poetry webzine is at
http://www.nildram.co.uk/~simmers

From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 15:10:38 1996
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Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
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> 	Various consequences get played out. I leave them for the
> 	rest of the discussion. The one consequence that I like the
> 	least is that some pseudo-decorum of academic style is some-
> 	how imposed by those who don't want creative dialogue here.
> 	Various forms of social pressure could be brought to bear
> 	to intimidate the more Prufrock-like of our members. People
> 	would be talking down in a patronising way to suggest that
> 	such and such isn't really done. Pretty soon, any kind of
> 	discussion, that involved any kind of real information and
> 	creative development of connections, would be frozen out.
> 	One wouldn't be able to assert anything about Eliot if it had-
> 	n't alreay been published elsewhere, and could be supported,
> 	not by a reference to Eliot's text, but by a reference to
> 	some critic's text.
> 
> 	Not a happy picture. And of course if such a practice were
> 	to succeed here, the idea would no doubt catch on elsewhere.
> 

Peter's remarks struck me deeply, because they relate closely to many 
things that have been on my mind over the last year or so.  As a 2nd-year 
M.A. student, my formal introduction to academia is nearing an end, and 
i've been evaluating my experiences and observations carefully now that I 
must choose whether I wish to continue.  And I've decided I don't.  
Granted, I have an innate and deep distrust of institutions that make it 
difficult for me to deal with a lot of what happens, but I believe there 
is much more to my worries than a personal oversensitivity.  Beyond the 
necessary evil of the practical university bureaucracy, I've found an 
intellectual intsitutionalization that's disturbed me greatly.  Due in 
part to the 'publish or perish' mentality, I've found much of the 
critical work I've come across to be little more than formulaic hack
work -- put work in bowl, add preferred popular name (Derrida, Lacan, 
Freud, etc.), stir in liberal amounts of jargon, and voila...instant 
scholarship.  But worse than that, I think, is the cliquish atmosphere of 
our intellectual institutions.  If you speak the language we do and drop 
the names we do and blame the same people we do, you're accepted; 
otherwise, you are summarily shunned (as extreme as this sounds, it has 
happened to me before).  And so few seem willing to admit it -- we praise 
ourselves for being one of the last bastions of free debate today, but 
I've seen little free debate in my years of schooling; instead, i've seen 
intellectual bullying and alienation.  The free debate is free as long as 
we come to (close to) the same conclusions.

On the other hand, I must give credit where it's due.  I've found people 
in academia (though I ask myself how they survived) who have changed my 
life in wonderful ways, who have helped me at times go beyond myself and 
my ideas, to open my mind in ways I din't think possible.  so I know it 
can be done.

I apologize for going on so long, but this does lead to a question for 
the list.  In light of what i've seen and experienced, I keep asking why 
we do this.  And that's my question:  why literature, why academia (if 
you're in it), and why Eliot?  I remember my 'literary awakening.'  Until 
I was a teenager, I had little use for art, especially poetry.  It seemed 
pointless.  then in eighth grade I read Byron's "When We Two Parted," and 
I thought, 'I wish I'd said that.  I wish I could have put my feeling 
into thhose words when I felt that way."  I felt closer to my feelings 
through another's words; I learned things about myself I hadn't known 
before (and, no less importantly, especially at 15, I learned I wasn't 
alone).  There was no turning back.  I ran across "Prufrock" a year or so 
later.  I remember reading it and rereading it.  I didn't understand most 
of what was going on, but I understood enough:  I was the 'you' in 'let 
us go then, you and I..."; I knew of the 'time / To prepare a face to 
meet the faces that you meet'; I had asked 'Do I dare / disturb the 
universe?'; I has said 'I do not think they will sing to me.'  I saw 
parts of myself I hadn't seen before (either through chance or choice); I 
learned in a way more profound than any of my textbooks had ever taught 
me before.  And that's why I'm here.  Why are you?

Once again, I apologize for the length.  I get carried away sometimes...)

m
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 15:16:03 1996
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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:21:04 -0800
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Subject: Re: EP's scalpel, please
From: Alexander Justice <[log in to unmask]>
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Dear Andrew,

Glad you put your  $.02 in. I think he got a drubbing he did not expect, 
or else he merely wrote for his friend Peter's admiration.
What astounded me was that Mr. Sonnenberg claimed to remember the climate 
of the 50s and the House Un-American Activities Cttee. I was very taken 
aback that someone who ought to know better -- age does not equal 
maturity, as my childhood vision of the world mistakenly had it. 

>Paul Sonnenburg's response to Virginia was the most verbose THING I've ever
>read.
>A sort of masturbatory logorrhea  reminiscent  of old high school pranks.
>It would surely have turned Eliot's stomach--and driven Pound to a frothy 
>rage.
>I appreciate
> this list, have found it most informative.  Boys, can we get back to the 
>books?
>
>
>Andrew


Alexander Justice * [log in to unmask] * San Laku, California, USA

Recommended reading of the month:_Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism 
Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History" by Mary Lefkowitz










From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 15:58:43 1996
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From: "Greg Foster" <[log in to unmask]>
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> Sidwell suggests that that meaning is made clear in the scenario Eliot wrote 
> for a re-jigged Sweeney A called The Superior Landlord, which ends with the 
> resurrection of Mrs Porter after she's been murdered by Sweeney. (They are 
> reunited to the strains of Mendelssohn's Wedding March.  So there's a final 
> transcendence which is absent from the published fragments, brilliant as 
> they are (just about my favourite bit of Eliot, actually).
> 
> The Superior Landlord scenario is among the Eliot papers at King's College 
> Cambridge.  Sidwell paraphrases it interestingly  - but I wonder whether any 
> list members know if it's been published in full?

To my knowledge, it has not been published in full.  However, it 
is paraphrased at length in a very interesting essay by the 
always-interesting James Longenbach:

James Longenbach, "Uncanny Eliot," in T. S. ELIOT: MAN AND POET, 
     vol. 1, ed. Laura Cowan (The Man and Poet Series, gen. ed. 
     Carroll F. Terrell; Orono, ME: National Poetry Foundation, 
     1990), 47-69.

I recommend it.

Greg Foster
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- Greg Foster <[log in to unmask]>   -   Listowner, TSE  -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- "[Eliot's] own life, he felt, half ruefully, had been like a  -
- Dostoevsky novel written by Middleton Murry." -- V. Eliot     -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 16:35:01 1996
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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:39:25 -0800
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Warren Wilson)
Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)

Dear c647749, whoever you may be,

You wrote, in part:

>I apologize for going on so long, but this does lead to a question for
>the list.  In light of what i've seen and experienced, I keep asking why
>we do this.  And that's my question:  why literature, why academia (if
>you're in it), and why Eliot?  I remember my 'literary awakening.'  Until
>I was a teenager, I had little use for art, especially poetry.  It seemed
>pointless.  then in eighth grade I read Byron's "When We Two Parted," >and
>I thought, 'I wish I'd said that.

I remember an episode in a class psychoanalytic theory in about 1964. A
woman presented a paper about the recovery of cognitive material from the
unconscious by the use of hypnosis. The professor, ordinarily a gentleman,
reacted as an ornery but orthodox psychoanalyst, and summarily rejected her
information because it was a fact which contradicted the theory. What, you
ask, does this have to do with TSEliot or poetry. I guess I'm hearing from
you that that sort of reaction is more or less commonplace in accademia,
and very frustrating. I now know that at the graduate level what one learns
may have more to do with accademic politics than with lyric poetry, or in
my case, understanding the feelings, thoughts and motives of human beings.
Graduation gave me a "Union" card which reduced education to the level of
some vulgar sort of pragmatism.

Part of my response to the poetry of TSE is that it somehow takes me beyond
the realm of the purely practical into the, I think, dangerous and useless
realm of beauty (also ignored by depth psychology until very recently). The
realm of aesthetics has to do with consciousness, the very antithesis of
the more or less an-aesthetic world of graduate education which seems so
often to grind on safely without either "memory" or "desire."

Warren Wilson
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 20:11:27 1996
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From: [log in to unmask] (Shelley O'Reilly)
Subject: unsubscribe

Sorry to bother you all with this- could someone please let me know how to
unsubscribe?

Thank you

-- Shelley


[log in to unmask]
Dr Shelley O'Reilly
Department of English, University of Tasmania
AUSTRALIA








From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 20:48:32 1996
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Date: 18 Feb 96 21:46:45 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Eliot on the Internet
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

Peter Montgomery wrote:


<Eliot has always had a way of being involved in the
	breaking of new ground>

I wonder if that isn't the role of the artist, as opposed to that of the
scholar, whose job essentially is to study and interpret artists.

< The way Eliot is treated on the
	Internet may well herald the new styles of scholarship
	which the medium allows, and may toll the bell for some of
	our older ways of doing things.>

The Internet is expected to revoutionize a number of fields, why not scholarship
as well?  

<All of a sudden one's proprietary
	idea has disappeared. It is a common idea.>

How is this different from a situation where, say, people getting together at a
scholarly conference get into a discussion and ideas come out that someone may
have been working on independently?

<
< The one consequence that I like the
	least is that some pseudo-decorum of academic style is some-
	how imposed by those who don't want creative dialogue here.
	Various forms of social pressure could be brought to bear
	to intimidate the more Prufrock-like of our members. People
	would be talking down in a patronising way to suggest that
	such and such isn't really done. Pretty soon, any kind of
	discussion, that involved any kind of real information and
	creative development of connections, would be frozen out.
	One wouldn't be able to assert anything about Eliot if it had-
	n't alreay been published elsewhere, and could be supported,
	not by a reference to Eliot's text, but by a reference to
	some critic's text.

	Not a happy picture. And of course if such a practice were
	to succeed here, the idea would no doubt catch on elsewhere.>

Again, how is this different from what already goes on in academic discussions
and publishing?  It seems to me that there is already an elite who more or less
controls access to who has the right to be heard and welcomed, and that
assertions not supported by reference to some critic are not always welcomed,
unless the asserter has already achieved a certain rank among critics.


From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 20:48:44 1996
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Date: 18 Feb 96 21:46:40 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Eliot on the Internet
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

< As a 2nd-year 
M.A. student, my formal introduction to academia is nearing an end, and 
i've been evaluating my experiences and observations carefully now that I 
must choose whether I wish to continue.  And I've decided I don't.  >

That's too bad.  I wonder if the problems you describe, of
over-institutionalization, cliqueishness, etc., haven't been exacerbated by the
fact that the shrinking job market for professors has led to very little new
blood coming into faculties over the past generation.  With a whole generation
coming up to retirement, that could all change very rapidly, and young people
coming in could find they have a lot of opportunity to change things more to
their liking over the next few years.  Do you dare disturb the universe?  

<And so few seem willing to admit it -- we praise 
ourselves for being one of the last bastions of free debate today, but 
I've seen little free debate in my years of schooling; instead, i've seen 
intellectual bullying and alienation.  The free debate is free as long as 
we come to (close to) the same conclusions.>

I wonder if part of that isn't due to the fact that the dinosaurs of today were
the hot-heads of yesterday - and that they don't want to admit that they are now
old dinosaurs <g>.  In every profession young people coming in have to defer, or
pretend to defer, to their elders, sometimes because the elders really are
right, but have lost the knack of explaining themselves to the non-initiates in
a way the non-initiate can understand, sometimes because the elder has the power
and the initiate has to acknowledge that in return for permission to enter.
Once you're "in" and begin to be accepted, then you start to have authority of
your own.  The danger then is to be sensitive to the needs of the people coming
in behind you.  It won't be all that different in a corporation, or a government
department, or any place else you wind up working if you decide not to continue
with an academic career.  

Oops I accidentally deleted your message so now I can't quote from it - I have
to paraphrase.  I think you asked the question why would one be "here" in this
discussion without a career academic reason - well I think there are a number of
people here who are not career academics, they just, as you so nicely put it,
love poetry, are interested in talking about it, sharing their feelings and
thoughts about it, and learning more from each other and from the career
academics who, despite their shortcomings <g> have devoted their lives to
studying literature full time and so naturally know more about it.  


From [log in to unmask] Sun Feb 18 21:52:29 1996
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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 19:57:21 -0800
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Apology from Alexander Justice
From: Alexander Justice <[log in to unmask]>
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>Dear Andrew,
>
>Glad you put your  $.02 in. I think he got a drubbing he did not expect, 
>or else he merely wrote for his friend Peter's admiration.

The above (and the rest not quoted here) was posted to the list though I 
thought quite sure it had only Andrew's address on it. I did not intend 
to renew that topic of digression on the TSE list, nor to publicly make 
said comments about said list members. I humbly offer apologies to Peter 
and Paul for the unnecessary comments,  to Andrew, and the rest of the 
list whose time and attention now get taken up by more irrelevancies. 

Sincerely,
Alexander Justice
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 00:46:17 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:43:36 +0200 (IST)
From: Farzin Shakibanejad <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
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Good morning all!! (at least it is morning here !)

Could someone kindly send me an analysis or description on 
T. S. Eliot's "Journey of the Magi"

The poem is attached below:

I hope you can help me with it.
With warm regards
<farzin>




Journey of the Magi
===================

A cold
coming we had of it,
Just the worst time of the year
For a journey, and
such a long journey:
The ways deep and the weather sharp,
The very dead
of winter.
And the camels galled, sore-footed, refractory,
Lying down in
the melting snow.
There were times when we regretted
The summer palaces
on slopes, the terraces,
And the silken girls bringing sherbet.
Then the
camel men cursing and grumbling
And running away, and wanting their
liquor and women,
And the night-fires going out, and the lack of
shelters,
And the cities dirty and the towns unfriendly
And the villages
dirty and charging high prices:
A hard time we had of it.
At the end we
preferred to travel all night,
Sleeping in snatches,
With the voices
singing in our ears, saying
That this was all folly.

Then at dawn we
came down to a temperate valley,
Wet, below the snow line, smelling of
vegetation;
With a running stream and a water mill beating the darkness,

And three trees on the low sky,
And an old white horse galloped away in
the meadow.
Then we came to a tavern with vine-leaves over the lintel,

Six hands at an open door dicing for pieces of silver,
And feet kicking
the empty wineskins.
But there was no information, and so we continued

And arrived at evening, not a moment too soon
Finding the place; it was
(you may say) satisfactory.

All this was a long time ago, I remember,

And I would do it again, but set down
This set down
This: were we led all
that way for
Birth or Death? There was a Birth, certainly,
We had
evidence and no doubt. I had seen birth and death,
But had thought they
were different; this Birth was
Hard and bitter agony for us, like Death,
our death.
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at
ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their
gods.
I should be glad of another death.


<farzin>


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 03:56:22 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 01:55:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Sunday, 18 Feb 1996, at 15:10:37,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

c>Peter's remarks struck me deeply, because they relate closely to many 
c>things that have been on my mind over the last year or so.  As a 2nd-year 
c>M.A. student, my formal introduction to academia is nearing an end, and 
c>i've been evaluating my experiences and observations carefully now that I 
c>must choose whether I wish to continue.  And I've decided I don't.  
Your statement here is moving. You raise a lot of questions that I
have seen cross a lot of people's minds in the last 30 odd years. Not
a whole lot has changed about the quandries a grad. student finds
himself in. Different people come to different conclusions, for a whole
variety of reasons. Some people stay in who shouldn't, and some leave
who shouldn't.

The thing to hang on to, either way, is your love of the literature.
It will be valuable no matter what. Eliot had something of a mission,
as my thesis supervisor and her husband were want to remind me of
many times. He set out to save (in a limited cultural sense, I think) 
the middle classes. He wanted to awaken, revive, instill (??) a
sense of values, of morality -- for good and ill, as he found it
in the lower classes. Because of that his work has a way of being
a bouy in a sea of inanity and boredom. It can help one ride
over the componded mental felonies of academia as easily as
the etherised evenings of industrialised suburbia.

My point is that we should not let academia shroud this
particular epiphany of Eliot, the way said academia has the traditional
academic excursions into Eliot. The decorum of the department
does not belong here.

I suspect that the attempt to transform academia into a mass-
production operation, to handle the baby boom, robbed said
academia of its best self. Now we slosh around in the dna
fragments that are left.

Having seen the best minds of my generation castrated by
the power politics of petty people, I chose to do the grunt
job on the front lines in a Community College. It's
had its ups and downs but not because of the pettiness
of academic dwarf minds. The work load is not aimiable.
Working with the students is quite fulfilling. I asked a
former president of the college why it was that the typical
academic politics don't occur here. He said that was simple: "I
have all the power."


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 04:25:29 1996
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 19 Feb 1996 02:24:53 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 02:24:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Eliot on the Internet
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Sunday, 18 Feb 1996, at 21:46:45,
thus spake Florentia Scott:

<Eliot has always had a way of being involved in the
	breaking of new ground>
FS>I wonder if that isn't the role of the artist, as opposed to that of the
FS>scholar, whose job essentially is to study and interpret artists.
I think scholarship can and should be as creative as any art.
In fact, the most valid discusive response to much art is in
the form of more art, even if the form be the essay. I disagree
that the essential role is so narrow and limited. Eliot's own
literary responses to other's writings were far from mere classification
and interpretation. With works like "Tradition and the Individual
Talent" he showed that there was much new critical ground to be
broken. His famous refusal to allow I.A.Richards to corner him
with various formulated phrases, stands as a testament to the folly
of a narrow view of the scholar's job.

< The way Eliot is treated on the
	Internet may well herald the new styles of scholarship
	which the medium allows, and may toll the bell for some of
	our older ways of doing things.>
FS>The Internet is expected to revoutionize a number of fields,
FS>why not scholarshi as well?
My point precisely. I'm glad we agree. I feel it will revolutionise
academia with a vengeance.

<All of a sudden one's proprietary
	idea has disappeared. It is a common idea.>
FS>How is this different from a situation where, say, people getting together
FS>at a scholarly conference get into a discussion and ideas come out that
FS>someone may have been working on independently?
It's a quantum leap forward in the same direction.
The internet can be an asynchronous conference that is always
in session. The frequency of mutuality and the discovery of
that mutuality is raised to the nth degree.

< The one consequence that I like the
	least is that some pseudo-decorum of academic style is some-
	how imposed by those who don't want creative dialogue here.
	Various forms of social pressure could be brought to bear
	to intimidate the more Prufrock-like of our members. People
	would be talking down in a patronising way to suggest that
	such and such isn't really done. Pretty soon, any kind of
	discussion, that involved any kind of real information and
	creative development of connections, would be frozen out.
	One wouldn't be able to assert anything about Eliot if it had-
	n't alreay been published elsewhere, and could be supported,
	not by a reference to Eliot's text, but by a reference to
	some critic's text.

	Not a happy picture. And of course if such a practice were
	to succeed here, the idea would no doubt catch on elsewhere.>

FS>Again, how is this different from what already goes on in academic
FS>discussions and publishing?  It seems to me that there is already an
FS>elite who more or less controls access to who has the right to be
FS>heard and welcomed, and that assertions not supported by reference to
FS>some critic are not always welcomed, unless the asserter has already
FS>achieved a certain rank among critics.

You're exactly right, it is no different from the current situation, and
my point is that there should be enormous differences. Internet
communication should blow the lid off of departmental politics,
so that anybody can have his say without fear or favour.

I had a fellow grad. once who won a fellowship to do her
doctorate with Dame Helen Gardner. I forget the subject; I think it
was Pound. They met once a week over the course of one academic
season, and discussed Gardner's cats. Why? Because Gardner was
bringing out a piece on the same subject and was unwilling to give
any of her thoughts away. I have enormous regard for Gardner's
scholarship and prose, but her treatment of people....

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
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From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 05:26:55 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 06:26:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "Christine R. Gray" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TSE and white Christians
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Peter, didn't TSE want to save/redeem only the white Christian middle and 
lower classes?  I spent several years studying TSE and was going to write 
my dissertation on him, but the more I learned about him the more I became 
disenchanted with him.  I admire the work but not the man--assuming that 
the two are, to a degree, separable.

christine gray, a lurker coming out of the closet.
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 06:32:45 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 06:32:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Bob Canary <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Eliot simulation
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If you are interested in experiencing The Waste Land as a MUD/MOO area, 
you might enjoy exploring my Waste Land area at Diversity U.  To reach 
it, telnet moo.du.org 8888, connect as a guest, and @join RobtC.
It includes both a stroll through the poem itself and the Waste Land 
Hotel, a Las Vegas style theme hotel based on the poem.
--Bob Canary [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 08:19:15 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 08:19:07 PST
From: Tim Redman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: re:check
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Thanks for the kind words.  Cheers!

					Tim Redman


On Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:47:46 -0500 (EST) James F Loucks 
wrote:

> From: James F Loucks <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:47:46 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: re:check
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Cc: [log in to unmask]
> 
> To Jack Kolb:  Thanks for the feedback. I remember you 
from UVA. Also, if Tim 
> Redman is looking: congrats on your move to Texas from 
OSU. Liked your Pound 
> book. Well researched and thorough.  Cheers.  James 
Loucks.  
> [log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 09:37:22 1996
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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 22:48:16 -0600
From: David Chinitz (remote) <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Why are you here? [was Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet
	
          (coninued)]

Says [log in to unmask]:

>I remember my 'literary awakening.'  Until  I was a teenager, I had
little use for art, especially poetry.  It seemed  pointless.  then
in eighth grade I read Byron's "When We Two Parted," and  I thought,
'I wish I'd said that.

For me it was E. E. Cummings' "I thank you God for most this
amazing."  Like you, I was 15 years old at the time.  I was even an
agnostic, but I knew exactly what Cummings meant.  In college
(Amherst) I was influenced by one of what you call those "people  in
academia... who have changed my  life in wonderful ways, who have
helped me at times go beyond myself and  my ideas, to open my mind in
ways I didn't think possible."  His name was David Sofield, and he
wrote poetry but never published any criticism (!); he was simply a
wonderful teacher.  A teacher of modern poetry, in particular; thus
my interest in Eliot, though I was already drawn to--and also
resistant to--The Waste Land.

So at this moment I think I'm in academia (a) as a teacher, to help
my students experience what you and I so value in our responses to
poetry, and (b) as a scholar, to repay Eliot and other writers for
what they have given me, and to exchange thoughts with others. 
Besides, where else do you get to wear those nifty caps and goofy
gowns?

David Chinitz
Loyola University Chicago

From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 11:01:05 1996
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 19 Feb 1996 12:00:49 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:00:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: new journal, Religion and the Arts
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New journal from Boston College due this spring:  Religion and the Arts 
seeks to develop new discourses for exploring the religious dimensions of 
the verbal, visual and performing arts, in the context of contemporary 
theory and culture.  It publishes interpretations that develop new approaches 
to the religious and spiritual aspects of works of art, discussions of the role 
of religion in cultural studies, critical overviews of the state of
scholarship, 
discussions of the theoretical relationship between religious discourse and 
other scholarly discourses,  reviews, interviews, comment, and debate.
Advisory Board: Richard A. Blake, S.J.; Harold Bloom; David Crystal; 
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi; Donald Davie; David DeLaura; Jane Dillenberger; 
Denis Donoghue; Jenny Franchot; Albert Gelpi; Paul Giles; Eugene 
Goodheart; Rene Girard; Giles Gunn; Geoffrey Hartman; Peter Jeffery; 
Richard Kearney; Robert Kiely; Thomas F. Mathews; Friedhelm Mennekes; 
J. Hillis Miller; Czeslaw Milosz; John W. O’Malley, S.J.; Walter J. Ong, 
S.J.; Jaroslav Pelikan; Stephen Prickett; Robert Rosenblum; Robert Farris 
Thompson; Marianna Torgovnik; David Tracy; Elie Wiesel
For more information write the editor, Dennis Taylor, editor, Religon and 
the Arts, 25 Lawrence Ave., Chestnut Hill, Mass. 02167.  Manuscripts and 
book review queries should also be sent here. Tel:  617 552 2303.  E Mail:  
[log in to unmask]  For subscriptions, write Religion and the Arts, 
P.O. Box 1897,  810 East 10th Street, Lawrence, Kansas, 66044-8897.   
Tel: 1 800 627 0629

From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 12:14:58 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:15:11 -0800 (PST)
From: tristan saldana <[log in to unmask]>
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Please cancel my subscription.
Thank You.
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 12:27:09 1996
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 19 Feb 1996 10:25:43 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:25:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Star Trek Voyager
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I think TSE is creeping around in the back of Michael
Piller's brain. Two weeks ago, when Tom Paris transcended
warp 10 to become everywhere at once, he made a statement
about the way different dimensions of time contain each
other that had serious echos of the opening of Burnt Norton.

Tonight's episode involving Q raised to the Q degree, is all
about the following:

        VOY - #13o - "Death Wish" "People like licence, and they like
		      restraint. ... ... [It] has been shown again and
		      again in history that people can put up with the
		      absence of all the things the economists tell us
		      they most need, with every rigour, every torment,
		      so long as they are not bored."

		      Eliot, T.S. ""A Commentary" THE CRITERION 12.49:644.
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 12:35:18 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:34:43 -0500
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Waste Land

I desperately need help translating the intro to Waste Land, where TSE
dedicates to Ezra Pound.  I also don't have the language background to
translate the end of Part V.  Can someone explain the purpose of lines
130-172 of Part II?  I am an English major at University of New Mexico, and a
senior.  I am trying to write a paper on the Waste Land for a Philosophy and
Lit. class, and I realized I am lacking a lot of background knowledge
necessary to understanding and writing about this poem.  If anyone is
interested in giving input, the subject is whether "The Waste Land" can be
seen simply as a modern inferno, a statement of despair about modern society,
or can it represent a reaction to experience by a thinking sensitive person
of any historical period?  I would love to know what anyone thinks about all
of this. Thanks.
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 13:01:58 1996
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 19 Feb 1996 11:01:06 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:01:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Waste Land
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 19 Feb 1996, at 13:34:43,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

P>I desperately need help translating the intro to Waste Land, where TSE
P>dedicates to Ezra Pound.  I also don't have the language background to
P>translate the end of Part V.  Can someone explain the purpose of lines
P>130-172 of Part II?  I am an English major at University of New Mexico, and a
P>senior.  I am trying to write a paper on the Waste Land for a Philosophy and
P>Lit. class, and I realized I am lacking a lot of background knowledge
P>necessary to understanding and writing about this poem.  If anyone is
P>interested in giving input, the subject is whether "The Waste Land" can be
P>seen simply as a modern inferno, a statement of despair about modern society,
P>or can it represent a reaction to experience by a thinking sensitive person
P>of any historical period?  I would love to know what anyone thinks about all
P>of this. Thanks.

I think you should check out Williamson's, A READER'S GUIDE TO T.S.ELIOT.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 13:03:40 1996
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 14:03:12 -0500 (EST)
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Waste Land

The epigraph to WL is from Petronius' _Satyricon_.  The speaker, a neaveau
riche (sp?) sort of a guy, says of his travels, "Now I saw the Sibyl of
Cumae I myself with my own eyes, hanging in an "ampulla" [vase?  bottle?],
and when the boys who were there [acolytes?] said:  'Sibyl, what do you want?'
she responded, 'I want to die.'"

That's a rough translation, but you get the idea.  Trimalchio, the speaker, 
tends toward drunkenness and bad Latin.

The connection--that the Sibyl, who has been granted eternal life but not
eternal youth, wants to die--with the ideas of death in life so important
to the whole poem.

(Oh--by the way--Trimalchio gets his sibyls mixed up--)

Good luck with your work--

             --Mary Margaret Richards
               [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 13:09:49 1996
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 19 Feb 1996 11:07:39 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:07:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Waste Land
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 19 Feb 1996, at 14:03:12,
thus spake [log in to unmask]:

R>The epigraph to WL is from Petronius' _Satyricon_.  The speaker, a neaveau
R>riche (sp?) sort of a guy, says of his travels, "Now I saw the Sibyl of
R>Cumae I myself with my own eyes, hanging in an "ampulla" [vase?  bottle?],
R>and when the boys who were there [acolytes?] said:'Sibyl, what do you want?'
R>she responded, 'I want to die.'"

Reminds me of tonight's episode of Voyager.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 13:15:58 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE and white Christians
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 19 Feb 1996, at 06:26:52,
thus spake Christine R. Gray:

CG>Peter, didn't TSE want to save/redeem only the white Christian middle and 
CG>lower classes?  I spent several years studying TSE and was going to write 
CG>my dissertation on him, but the more I learned about him the more I became 
CG>disenchanted with him.  I admire the work but not the man--assuming that 
CG>the two are, to a degree, separable.

I did a reply to this, but haven't received my verification copy.
Did anyone else receive the reply?

If not, I will do it again.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 13:21:59 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Waste Land

Thanks.
Patti
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 13:49:08 1996
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From: [log in to unmask] (Paul Gleason)
Subject: Re: Waste Land

>You might want to have a look at Eliot's essay "Ulysses, Order, and Myth,"
>where he develops his idea of the mythic method. Eliot's use of myth makes the
>poem applicable to the twentieth century inferno, as well as to the many
>infernos of ages past.


I desperately need help translating the intro to Waste Land, where TSE
>dedicates to Ezra Pound.  I also don't have the language background to
>translate the end of Part V.  Can someone explain the purpose of lines
>130-172 of Part II?  I am an English major at University of New Mexico, and a
>senior.  I am trying to write a paper on the Waste Land for a Philosophy and
>Lit. class, and I realized I am lacking a lot of background knowledge
>necessary to understanding and writing about this poem.  If anyone is
>interested in giving input, the subject is whether "The Waste Land" can be
>seen simply as a modern inferno, a statement of despair about modern society,
>or can it represent a reaction to experience by a thinking sensitive person
>of any historical period?  I would love to know what anyone thinks about all
>of this. Thanks.


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 15:08:47 1996
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From: RAINER EMIG <[log in to unmask]>
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Date:          Mon, 19 Feb 1996 21:07:36 GMT
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I would like to unsubscribe.
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 15:11:34 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:16:18 -0800
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Warren Wilson)
Subject: re: Journey of the Magi

It seems to me that this poem could be read as a midrash on parts of the
second chapter of Matthew's version of the gospel.

Warren Wilson
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 15:51:19 1996
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Date: 19 Feb 96 15:40:27 EST
From: Andrew Howald <[log in to unmask]>
To: TSE List <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>


> Due in part to the 'publish or perish' mentality, I've found much of the 
>critical work I've come across to be little more than formulaic hack
>work -- put work in bowl, add preferred popular name (Derrida, Lacan, 
>Freud, etc.), stir in liberal amounts of jargon, and voila...instant 
>scholarship.  But worse than that, I think, is the cliquish atmosphere of 
>our intellectual institutions.  If you speak the language we do and drop 
>the names we do and blame the same people we do, you're accepted; 
>otherwise, you are summarily shunned (as extreme as this sounds, it has 
>happened to me before).  And so few seem willing to admit it -- we praise 
>ourselves for being one of the last bastions of free debate today, but 
>I've seen little free debate in my years of schooling; instead, i've seen 
>intellectual bullying and alienation.  The free debate is free as long as 
>we come to (close to) the same conclusions.

[deleted]

>I ran across "Prufrock" a year or so 
>later.  I remember reading it and rereading it.  I didn't understand most 
>of what was going on, but I understood enough:  I was the 'you' in 'let 
>us go then, you and I..."; I knew of the 'time / To prepare a face to 
>meet the faces that you meet'; I had asked 'Do I dare / disturb the 
>universe?'; I has said 'I do not think they will sing to me.'  I saw 
>parts of myself I hadn't seen before (either through chance or choice); I 
>learned in a way more profound than any of my textbooks had ever taught 
>me before.  And that's why I'm here.  Why are you?

	I was happy to encounter this burst of  sincerity on the list.  Not that
the correspondents here are generally insincere; most of us, I bet, encountered
Eliot at an early age, and were captivated before we understood.  I knew large
passages of the Waste Land by heart before I really began to plumb the meaning.
But I agree that in academia one seems to fall further from the music and the
enchantment into system-building, bickering, cliquishness.  During my
(inconclusive) graduate studies I saw my university occupied by the foreign
forces of deconstruction.  Anyone failing to pay obeisance to the great French
generals was disdained.  And  yet--there was an underground.  A certain old
professor hidden away in another building had his students read Chaucer.  Aloud.
Every day for a semester.  That experience atoned for all the rest.  

	So if I were to venture some advise it would be to join the underground.
Ha ha.  I mean make sure the poetry comes first.  (It surely doesn't in most
schools.)  Or maybe you are a poet and should stay the hell away from academia.
We have enough academic poets.  Perhaps study medicine.  Or work in a bank?.   

Andrew
*************************************************************
Mais les vrais voyageurs sont ceux-la seuls qui partent
Pour partir; coeurs legers, semblables aux ballons,
De leur fatalite jamais ils ne s'ecartent,
Et, sans savoir pourquoi, disent toujours :  Allons!   
                                                   --Baudelaire
*************************************************************


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 15:55:58 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:03:59 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: Waste Land

>I desperately need help translating the intro to Waste Land, where TSE
>dedicates to Ezra Pound.  I also don't have the language background to
>translate the end of Part V.

The Norton Anthology of English Literature, Vol II, translates the
introduction to The Waste Land as:  "For once I myself saw with my own eyes
the Sibyl at Cumae hanging in a cage, and when the boys said to her 'Sybil,
waht do you want?' she replied, 'I want to die.'"

"il miglior fabbro" translates as "the better craftsman"


Shantih= "the peace which passeth understanding," which should be in
Eliot's notes after the poem.


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 18:44:34 1996
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Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Waste Land

Thank you, everyone for all your ideas and stuff--I found that the Norton
Anthology pretty much answered all of my questions without my having to dig
through the library and the primary sources.  It was very helpful as far as
biographical, mythological and literary info.
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 18:52:07 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 16:51:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 19 Feb 1996, at 15:40:27,
thus spake Andrew Howald:

AH>So if I were to venture some advise it would be to join the underground.
AH>Ha ha. I mean make sure the poetry comes first.  (It surely doesn't in most
AH>schools.) Or maybe you are a poet and should stay the hell away from
AH>academia. We have enough academic poets. Perhaps study medicine.

An important consideration, Andrew. I agree. I also think that it
is up to us to prevent the internet from becoming like the same old grind.
It's new. Maybe we can do a few things differently, before good old
human nature takes over. I suspect there are a lot of people who
support the SYSTEM without wanting to, or even realising they are
doing it, but are some how locked in.

AH>Or work in a bank?.   

Very astute! It speaks for itself.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 19:03:59 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 20:12:00 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Count Chocula)
Subject: Re: Waste Land

>Thank you, everyone for all your ideas and stuff--I found that the Norton
>Anthology pretty much answered all of my questions without my having to dig
>through the library and the primary sources.  It was very helpful as far as
>biographical, mythological and literary info.


But always take the Norton Anthology's criticism with a significantly sized
grain of salt.


From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 19:07:07 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:06:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE and white Christians
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 19 Feb 1996, at 06:26:52,
thus spake Christine R. Gray:

CG>Peter, didn't TSE want to save/redeem only the white Christian middle and 
CG>lower classes?  I spent several years studying TSE and was going to write 
CG>my dissertation on him, but the more I learned about him the more I became 
CG>disenchanted with him.  I admire the work but not the man--assuming that 
CG>the two are, to a degree, separable.

My phone line died just as I was about to send an earlier
response to this. From what I can tell it didn't get through.

You ask a question which implies you already have an answer.
I'm sure we would all be delighted to know what that is.

Besides, Eliot's anti-semetism is a fair topic of discussion.
I suppose one could make a case for the uncomplimentary lines
in the poetry being reflections of the attitudes of the times.
Such a case can't be made for the remarks in AFTER STRANGE GODS.
I've seen one critic's suggestion that the remarks reflected
E.'s state of mind after his separation from dear Viv.

Then there were the holidays E. took in South Africa.

BTW, keep an eye out (figuratively) for a post on "The Love Song
of J. Alfrieda Prufrock" which I have in the works.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Mon Feb 19 21:12:13 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:07:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE and white Christmas
To: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
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On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> Then there were the holidays E. took in South Africa.
> 
> BTW, keep an eye out (figuratively) for a post on "The Love Song
> of J. Alfrieda Prufrock" which I have in the works.

	While waiting appetently at the foot of the gangplank for
Alfrieda, we may idly speculate that the South African vacations were
rather more for the sea air on the decks of the Union-Castle steamships
than for the opportunity to make demographic observations ashore. 

				PWS
				Washington, DC
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 00:24:44 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:23:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE and white Christmas
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Monday, 19 Feb 1996, at 22:07:00,
thus spake Paul Sonnenburg:

PS>On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:
PS>
>> Then there were the holidays E. took in South Africa.
>> 
>> BTW, keep an eye out (figuratively) for a post on "The Love Song
>> of J. Alfrieda Prufrock" which I have in the works.
PS>
PS>	While waiting appetently at the foot of the gangplank for
PS>Alfrieda, we may idly speculate that the South African vacations were
PS>rather more for the sea air on the decks of the Union-Castle steamships
PS>than for the opportunity to make demographic observations ashore. 

Indeed. In fact I only know about it because a friend saw them
on one of the trips. I call this technique, baiting the dogfish.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
 
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 07:50:27 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:51:17 -0400 (AST)
From: "Dr. Gary Davis" <[log in to unmask]>
To: tse-list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TSE's residences in London
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960220094920.12308C-100000@fundy>
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I wondered if anyone is aware whether TSE lived in or near Brunswick 
Square in Bloomsbury in London, and if so whether they know his street 
address there.  Thank you very much indeed.
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 10:16:44 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:17:24 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: James Merrill and T. S. Eliot

I'm reading RECITATIVE and would
>appreciate your going further into Merrill's debt.  Virginia

I too am interested in Eliot and James Merrill.  So, a couple of stray points.

In Merrill's _The Changing Light at Sandover_ we learn from the ouija
spirits that _The Waste Land_ was "ghostwriten."  By Rimbaud!  Not sure if
this means that Eliot was Rimbaud reincarnated or simply that Rimbaud's
spirit spoke through Eliot.

A character in Merrill's novel _The (Diblos) Notebook_, when lecturing on
Tennyson and Eliot, tells his students that he prefers the religious poetry
of Eliot to Tennyson. While Tennyson is content to echo Anglican hymns,
Merrill's lecturer maintains that The Waste Land, Eliot's "'magnificent
collage of faith and faiths,'" is more meaningful because Eliot is "'aware
in his sophistication that the fragments he has 'shored up' are valid
because of their flaws, their inefficacy as living doctrine--'"  The
lecturer adopts the paradoxical strategy Merrill himself uses in valuing
spiritual experiences for their "inefficacy."
I doubt Eliot's would approve of Merrill's interpretations, but they do
reveal Eliot's influence on Merrill.

Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
(314) 882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 10:49:07 1996
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From: hmm <[log in to unmask]>
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On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Farzin Shakibanejad wrote:

> Could someone kindly send me an analysis or description on 
> T. S. Eliot's "Journey of the Magi"

 <part of poem deleted>
 
> All this was a long time ago, I remember,
> 
> And I would do it again, but set down
> This set down
> This: were we led all
> that way for
> Birth or Death? There was a Birth, certainly,
> We had
> evidence and no doubt. I had seen birth and death,
> But had thought they
> were different; this Birth was
> Hard and bitter agony for us, like Death,
> our death.
> We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
> But no longer at
> ease here, in the old dispensation,
> With an alien people clutching their
> gods.
> I should be glad of another death.

Off the top of my head, I'd say this sums up nicely the fear of a 
changing world.  The magi are travelling to Jesus' birthplace with their 
gifts, ready and willing to symbolically crown him king of kings.  At the 
same time, however, they know their way of life, civilization's way of 
life, is going to change irrevocably, and not always for the best.  The 
poem reminded me of the late-80's fall of Communism.  The nearly manic 
celebration as the Berlin Wall fell masked an as-yet unvoiced fear -- 
we no longer knew where we stood.  With two roughly equal superpowers 
casting their shadows over everything, there was a sense of order, even 
if we didn't like it.  That order fell into the rubble of the Wall, and 
we've learned since then the price of a world free of that order.

Hope this helps.

m
[log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 11:40:04 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:57:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TSE, Art & Artist
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On Monday, 19 February, Christine Gray wrote:

	" . . .the more I learned about [TSE] the more I became disenchanted 
>with him.  I admire the work but not the man--assuming that the two are, 
>to a degree, separable."  

	The moral issues implicit in Christine's qualms about Eliot's
social philosophy and elitist views have been pragmatically coped with, in
part, by commentators who choose to cut dogies out of the herd and brand
them separately, viz. the volumes of "Eliot as . . ."  Poet, Literary
Critic, Social Critic, Philosopher, Editor, et al.  Potentially
troublesome notions in such comparative isolation may appear to reduce the
risk of perceived contamination in the work, both by "category" and over
time.  I confess to having found such conceits, even though I know I'm
deceiving myself (a sort of "white deception"), both necessary and
desirable in my personal relationship to Eliot's biography and oeuvre. 
Even while cherishing my favorite works, I've tried to better understand
the disturbing evidence of anti-Semitism, for example, and the problematic
whiffs of fascism. 

	Because in Eliot's case the significance of these matters seems to
me to be rendered empirically inoperant in the ultimately moral stature of
the lifework, I've relegated them in my mind to the status of functionally
irrelevant curiosities.  Despite the light they may shed on our
conjectures about Eliot's work, I do much the same with the problematic
aspects of the man's complex personal relationships, with Vivienne Eliot,
for instance, and John Hayward.  When we're immersed in the work, such
stuff simply doesn't signify. 

	The redoubtable Helen Gardner (when she wasn't playing her cats 
close to her chest to keep her publishing secrets impounded) endorses 
this general strategy.  Modifying Kenneth Burke's axiom that The main 
ideal of criticism is to use all there is to use" to "all that he can 
use," Dame Helen cautions:

	"The main object of the enterprise is to help a reader to read 
with more understanding and enjoyment.  Some restraint [of criticism] is 
needed if the value of the text is not to be reduced by the attempt to 
set it within the context of the writer's total achievement, the 
circumstances of his life, and the events and concerns of the age in 
which it was written.  This restraint is best provided by a continual 
refreshing of one's memory of the writer's own words, a continual revival 
of the experience of reading the work.  The information that we have 
gathered then sinks into the background, enriching and colouring our 
response." (In Defense of the Imagination. Cambridge, MA: Harvard U. 
Pr., 1982, p. 83.)

					PWS
					Washington, DC

	(Where they're contemplating closing the crumbling St. Elizabeth's, 
perhaps a little late to be called penny wise and Pound foolish . . .)
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 13:44:13 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:43:02 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: TSE's residences in London
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On Tuesday, 20 Feb 1996, at 09:51:17,
thus spake Dr. Gary Davis:

DG>I wondered if anyone is aware whether TSE lived in or near Brunswick 
DG>Square in Bloomsbury in London, and if so whether they know his street 
DG>address there.  Thank you very much indeed.

I think at one point in his career he lived in Richmond. If I get
a chance I'll check his letters when I'm home later today.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 13:46:25 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:46:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TSE, Art & Artist, 2
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	Christine Gray's art/artist quandary is a cogent one in letters,
and her posting has triggered a case of the "It's a Small, Small World" 
syndrome for me during the last couple of days.  Round and round go Lowry,
St. Exupery, Faulkner, Donne, Joyce, Rimbaud . . . How many artists of the
first rank have led "immaculate" lives free of any act or attribute that
might trouble one observer or another? I can't think of many offhand, and
they're all Mary Ann Evans -- even if a good many of her Victorian
contemporaries were scandalized by her personal life. 

	Among the moderns, I unapologetically suggest, T.S. Eliot's 
record, however blemished, exhibits a preponderance of evidence 
supporting the conclusion that he was a "Good Man."  Whatever his 
putative personal failings that might have any public relevance, they 
appear to me to be more than outweighed in ultimate significance by his 
enormous artistic and professional accomplishment.

	Another telling index of a man's virtue must be the company he 
keeps and his reputation among his friends. In reaching her 
disenchantment before abandoning E. as her dissertation topic, I wonder 
if Christine encountered the work and personal observations about Eliot 
of Robert Sencourt, Frederick Tomlin, John Hayward, William Turner Levy, 
Stephen Spender, Djuna Barnes, Frederick Prokosch, Geoffrey Faber, Alan 
Tate and the many, many others who have personally witnessed and attested 
to the man's enormous kindness, compassion, integrity, and personal charm?

	Not least among the evidences of character must be the verifiable 
results of a person's achievements over time.  My guess is that a 
consensus among subscribers to this list would confirm a general sense of 
Eliot's legacy as essentially grounded in "virtue." How many of us here 
have not been moved by the man's work to salutary self-examination, 
heightened magnanimity, and deeply enhanced understanding of our 
humanity?  While such concerns recur throughout his work, Eliot's 
profoundly compassionate sense of personal and public ethics resonates 
most sublimely through the 4Q.  Not to belabor the obvious, these few 
lines among so many illuminate the poet's moral focus:

			. . . the shame
  Of motives late revealed, and the awareness
Of things ill done and done to others' harm
 Which once you took for exercise of virtue.
  Then fools' approval stings, and honour stains. 

***

The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.

***

			We appreciate this
	better
In the agony of others, nearly experienced
Involving ourselves, than in our own.
For our own past is covered by the currents of action,
But the torment of others remains an experience
Unqualified, unworn by subsequent attrition.

			***

	Perhaps Christine's ambivalence about the separability of man and 
work is a better test for Eliot than most.  Whether you opt for 
separability or unity, T.S. Eliot and his work make an enlightening 
binary star system.


					PWS
					Washington, D.C.

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 14:48:52 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:49:32 -0600
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Materer)
Subject: Eliot's Magi . . . and Yeats's

>On Mon, 19 Feb 1996, Farzin Shakibanejad wrote:
>
>> Could someone kindly send me an analysis or description on
Eliot's "Journey of the Magi"?

>
  The magi are travelling to Jesus' birthplace with their
>gifts, ready and willing to symbolically crown him king of kings.  At the
>same time, however, they know their way of life, civilization's way of
>life, is going to change irrevocably, and not always for the best.

>[log in to unmask]

Let me add to c647749's interpretation some comments of my own that reflect
my teaching a course in which we cover both Eliot and W. B. Yeats.  I hope
it's not unreasonable to think Eliot had Yeats's "The Magi" in mind when he
wrote his "Journey of the Magi."

Although Eliot felt drawn to a traditional faith, he could not in 1922
decide whether an Eastern or Western spirituality was more compelling.
After he became an Anglican in 1928, the force of his conversion was
reflected in his denunciation of unorthodox spirituality not only in a
prose polemic like After Strange Gods but also in his poetry. He was
virtually rejecting the influence of Jessie Weston when, in his church
pageant The Rock (1934), he disdained the "affirmation of rites with
forgotten meanings" as a pagan "dead end" (CPP 107).  Such rites are
related to the traditional image of the world snake, the "polar dragon" of
Yeats's verse, in a portentous warning not to be too curious about
spiritual matters such as the "future waves of time" and the command to
renounce "those who prize the serpent's golden eyes . . . (CPP 112).
Eliot's magus in "The Journey of the Magi" (1927) discovers the wave of the
future in the knowledge of Christ, but it leaves him uneasy with the old
dispensation and an "alien people clutching their gods" (CPP 69). His
experience is simply "satisfactory," in the strictly theological sense of
"satisfaction" as Christ's sacrifice to atone for original sin. Eliot's
magus has experienced a unique gnosis, but it is a privilege that burdens
him, rather as Yeats's "Magi" (1919) are burdened by their continual quest.
Eliot's magus might be described in the same terms Yeats describes his
Magi: "the pale unsatisfied ones" (Poems of W.B. Yeats, ed. Finneran, p.
126).  But Eliot's protagonist is ready for death, whether a despairing one
clutching his old gods, or a redemptive one into a new birth.  Yeats's
Magi, on the contrary, continue their Gnostic quest for direct mystical
experience, hoping to find once again the "uncontrollable mystery" revealed
at Bethlehem. The approach to spiritual experience of Yeats's Magi is
utterly different from that of the protagonist of Eliot's companion poem to
the "Journey of the Magi." In "A Song for Simeon," Simeon is content with
the promise of redemption and modestly asserts, "Not for me the ultimate
vision" (CPP 70).

Rather than an ultimate vision, such as Yeats's magi continually hope for,
Eliot's personae have fitful and frightened glimpses of another world,

Timothy Materer
Director of Lower Division Studies
(314) 882-2356  Winter96 office hours:
MWF 11:40-12:40 and by appt.
http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 15:17:03 1996
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From: "Peter Quigley" <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: freedom of speech


I remain the living dead...wanting to die and unsubscribe but condemned to live 
on and get more messages ....how to die?

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 15:21:40 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 16:21:23 -0500
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Eliot's Magi . . . and Yeats's

Tim,

    Thank you for the wonderful background including Yeats' poem.

In a message dated 96-02-20 16:07:16 EST, Tim Materer writes:

> But Eliot's protagonist is ready for death, whether a despairing one
>clutching his old gods, or a redemptive one into a new birth.  

My understanding of the final wish for another death has always been the
rather literal wish that those living during Christ's life, but before his
deathmight wish for. No one is redeemed until Jesus' death in the form of the
crucifixtion. 
    
              Gabrielle Loperfido
               Alexandria, Virginia
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 16:01:56 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 18:02:10 -0400 (AST)
From: "Dr. Gary Davis" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TSE's residences in London
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On Tue, 20 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> I think at one point in his career he lived in Richmond. If I get
> a chance I'll check his letters when I'm home later today.

I was thinking of the years when he had his aquarium.

Gary
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 16:03:16 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 21:00:58 +0000
Subject: Re: TSE, Art & Artist, 2
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> 	Perhaps Christine's ambivalence about the separability of man and 
> work is a better test for Eliot than most.  Whether you opt for 
> separability or unity, T.S. Eliot and his work make an enlightening 
> binary star system.
> 
> 
> 					PWS
> 					Washington, D.C.
>
I must say that when I attended, wholly accidentally, the place of 
his internment I was convicted that I was in the presence of someone who the NT 
would define as a saint.  Whilst believing that James Joyce was by 
far the greater artist I did not feel a sense of holiness when, again wholly 
accidentally, I attended JJ's grave in Zurich.  But then JJ has a 
statue, his family and is the only named person on the guide at 
the entrance whereas TSE is alone and unannounced in the draughty 
church in East Coker.
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 16:06:45 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 20:46:40 +0000
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> AH>Or work in a bank?.   
> 
> Very astute! It speaks for itself.
> 
Hang on ! Why does it speak for itself ?  TSE worked in a bank.
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 16:09:46 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 20:46:40 +0000
Subject: Ash Wednesday
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Having just had a great feed of pancakes on Shrove Tuesday  I 
realised that tomorrow is Ash Wednesday.  I have started a 
tradition (once is an experiment, twice is a tradition) of using the 
ASB shorter form of evening prayer with a reading from TSE instead 
of a sermon (much the same thing really: obscure and slightly 
threatening) on Ash Wednesday at 7.30pm British Winter time.

This year I'm going to read East Coker and I would be grateful if one 
or two of you could, wherever you are (here,or there or elsewhere, but 
hopefully in your beginning), read along.  Madame Sostoris may or may 
not approve: to be conscious is not to be in time.

        The moment in the drafty church at smokefall....... :)

Thanks.
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 16:39:06 1996
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Date: 20 Feb 96 17:34:59 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Wasteland - Merrill
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

Timothy Materer wrote:

<Merrill's lecturer maintains that The Waste Land, Eliot's "'magnificent
collage of faith and faiths,'" is more meaningful because Eliot is "'aware
in his sophistication that the fragments he has 'shored up' are valid
because of their flaws, their inefficacy as living doctrine--'" 

Do you suppose the "collage" approach reflects Eliot's Unitarian upbringing?  

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 17:06:39 1996
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Mary Tyler Knowles)
Subject: Prufrock's "morning coat"

I'd appreciate your thoughts on the significance of Prufrock's "morning
coat." I spent much time yesterday just trying to find a description of
said article of sartorial splendor. I finally turned to my rather elegant
Virginia father who told me that it is the same as a cutaway, that one
wears a grey ascot and a stiff (?) collar with it, that the coat had tails
and was black, that one wore (if really correct) black gloves and black
shoes, naturally with spats. The trousers are striped. I asked him about
the occasion for such attire and he said "only after four o'clock" and to a
wedding or a funeral. He was rather startled that (a) I didn't already know
all this information! and (b) wondered why in the world  I "needed" it. His
hearing not being terribly good, he thought I was remarrying in some sort
of period splendor (I have a perfectly good husband, in fact, though he
does not wear "morning coats." Actually, what I want to know is what it
signifies that P. is in a morning coat-are we meant simply to be aware of
the formality of the society, in general, and the tea party in particular?
are we meant to pick up sublimated wedding/funeral echoes? Any suggestions
could come to me at [log in to unmask] I begin the poem with my 10-12 grade
students tomorrow. They are primed, having just finished *A Room with A
View.* Then on to "The Wasteland" and *Mrs. Dalloway.* Thanks-Tyler


From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 17:14:41 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 15:13:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE, Art & Artist
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 20 Feb 1996, at 10:57:19,
thus spake Paul Sonnenburg:

PS>	(Where they're contemplating closing the crumbling St. Elizabeth's, 
PS>perhaps a little late to be called penny wise and Pound foolish . . .)

In for a Penny; in for a Pound.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 17:32:48 1996
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> 
>> AH>Or work in a bank?.   
>> 
>> Very astute! It speaks for itself.
>> 
>Hang on ! Why does it speak for itself ?  TSE worked in a bank.
>
That's the point.  If it was good enough.......>

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 17:58:24 1996
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Subject: Re: TSE, Art & Artist, 2
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>> 	Perhaps Christine's ambivalence about the separability of man and 
>> work is a better test for Eliot than most.  Whether you opt for 
>> separability or unity, T.S. Eliot and his work make an enlightening 
>> binary star system.
>> 
>> 
>> 					PWS
>> 					Washington, D.C.
>>
>I must say that when I attended, wholly accidentally, the place of 
>his internment I was convicted that I was in the presence of someone who
the NT 
>would define as a saint.  Whilst believing that James Joyce was by 
>far the greater artist I did not feel a sense of holiness when, again wholly 
>accidentally, I attended JJ's grave in Zurich.  But then JJ has a 
>statue, his family and is the only named person on the guide at 
>the entrance whereas TSE is alone and unannounced in the draughty 
>church in East Coker.

Jonathan.

     As a footnote, a professor of mine also taught special classes at a
large shrine here in our city.  Mystics were the subject of one of his
courses.  He included Eliot among them.

     I just reread East Coker.  Thank you.

Tosca>

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 18:35:55 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 18:35:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Darlene Sybert <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: peter
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On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Christine wrote:
> 
> At 11:07 PM 2/16/96 -0500, Virginia Conn wrote:
> >I KNEW I WAS GOING TO BE FLAMED!
> >
> >To Mr Sonnenberg & all of you who have written to compare me to
> >McCarthy et al, let me state that the message was posted by Christine
> >Norstrand on a personal e-mail to her...she took it upon herself to make 
> >my private correspondence to her public.  She wanted this forum
> >without being the instigator.  
> >
> Well, she's right, you know.  It was horrible netiquette to post private
> correspondence.  I am sincerely sorry that it caused her such unhappiness.  
> 
> To Peter and Paul and your ilk,
> 
> Is securing the academic hydrant pissing championship really worthy this?
> Are you really men of such dark vision that you miss that your demonstrated
> competence at hurting / dominating/ suppressing one person doesn't stop
> there but travels in a nefarious thread indefinitely?  
> 
> Certainly, Virginia's objections were not solely the result of an
> anti-American comment.  Rather they were grew from a multitude of remarks
> whose clear intention was not to suggest an alternative viewpoint but to
> expose the original speaker as some totally "other", much less inferior,
> subhuman being.  
> 
> Yes, you are "best".  But at what?
> 
> 

	Well said, Christine

Darlene Sybert                
http://www.missouri.edu/~c557506/index.htl 
University of Missouri at Columbia, English Dept
Office: 6 Tate Hall  Tu-Th 1:30-3:30 or by  appt
******************************************************************************
Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate
are necessary to human existence...-Wm Blake, MHH, plate 3
******************************************************************************

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 19:14:27 1996
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Dear Darlene.

     Apparently you haven't been reading your mail for several days.  This
whole situation has been cleared up; people have apologized, explained, and
tried to make amends.  Please don't let us dig it all up again.  Let the
feelings on all sides settle down and heal.

Thanks.

Tosca

>On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Christine wrote:
>> 
>> At 11:07 PM 2/16/96 -0500, Virginia Conn wrote:
>> >I KNEW I WAS GOING TO BE FLAMED!
>> >
>> >To Mr Sonnenberg & all of you who have written to compare me to
>> >McCarthy et al, let me state that the message was posted by Christine
>> >Norstrand on a personal e-mail to her...she took it upon herself to make 
>> >my private correspondence to her public.  She wanted this forum
>> >without being the instigator.  
>> >
>> Well, she's right, you know.  It was horrible netiquette to post private
>> correspondence.  I am sincerely sorry that it caused her such unhappiness.  
>> 
>> To Peter and Paul and your ilk,
>> 
>> Is securing the academic hydrant pissing championship really worthy this?
>> Are you really men of such dark vision that you miss that your demonstrated
>> competence at hurting / dominating/ suppressing one person doesn't stop
>> there but travels in a nefarious thread indefinitely?  
>> 
>> Certainly, Virginia's objections were not solely the result of an
>> anti-American comment.  Rather they were grew from a multitude of remarks
>> whose clear intention was not to suggest an alternative viewpoint but to
>> expose the original speaker as some totally "other", much less inferior,
>> subhuman being.  
>> 
>> Yes, you are "best".  But at what?
>> 
>> 
>
>	Well said, Christine
>
>Darlene Sybert                
>http://www.missouri.edu/~c557506/index.htl 
>University of Missouri at Columbia, English Dept
>Office: 6 Tate Hall  Tu-Th 1:30-3:30 or by  appt
>******************************************************************************
>Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate
>are necessary to human existence...-Wm Blake, MHH, plate 3
>******************************************************************************
>
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 20:13:41 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 18:12:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 20 Feb 1996, at 20:46:40,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

>> AH>Or work in a bank?.   
>> Very astute! It speaks for itself.
JC>Hang on ! Why does it speak for itself ?  TSE worked in a bank.

That's why it speaks for itself. He could more easily have been a
tacher (was one for a while, actually).

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 20:15:59 1996
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 18:15:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE's residences in London
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On Tuesday, 20 Feb 1996, at 18:02:10,
thus spake Dr. Gary Davis:

DG>On Tue, 20 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:
>> I think at one point in his career he lived in Richmond. If I get
>> a chance I'll check his letters when I'm home later today.
DG>I was thinking of the years when he had his aquarium.

Actually, that was only for six months once, when he was
between cats.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Tue Feb 20 21:28:28 1996
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From: "Dr. Gary Davis" <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
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On Tue, 20 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> That's why it speaks for itself. He could more easily have been a
> teacher (was one for a while, actually).

Can one not be a teacher or a banker and a poet at the same time?
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 05:31:41 1996
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From: [log in to unmask] (George Simmers)
Subject: Re: TSE, Art & Artist, 2
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Paul Sonnenberg wrote:
>
>	Among the moderns, I unapologetically suggest, T.S. Eliot's 
>record, however blemished, exhibits a preponderance of evidence 
>supporting the conclusion that he was a "Good Man."...
>
Am I alone in finding Eliot's virtue actually the source of a certain 
unlikeability, especially in his between-marriages middle years?

"The Idea of a Christian Society", for example, is such a mean-spirited, 
humanly thin piece of writing - as though Eliot was pretending the Sweeney 
within him no longer existed. There's an openness to existence in the 
earlier writings, both prose and verse, that fades away at this stage in his 
writing. 

I can't take Eliot as the model of a "Good Man", with his self-punishing 
religion, and his reteat from the human.  But as the model of an artist, 
whose best works contain phrases after which you'll never see things the 
same again  -  Oh yes!
George Simmers
SNAKESKIN poetry webzine is at
http://www.nildram.co.uk/~simmers

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 09:33:37 1996
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Date: 21 Feb 96 10:29:39 EST
From: Florentia Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: "(unknown)" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: TSE art & artists
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

Jonathan Crowther's description of his visit to TSE's grave is very moving.  

JC< I did not feel a sense of holiness when, again wholly 
accidentally, I attended JJ's grave in Zurich.  But then JJ has a 
statue, his family and is the only named person on the guide at 
the entrance whereas TSE is alone and unannounced in the draughty 
church in East Coker.>

I wonder if Mr.Crowther would be kind enough to enlighten me on one little
point, as I have not had the opportunity to visit East Coker: I understand that
the reason TSE wished to be buried in East Coker, and part of the personal
significance of the title East Coker and its relation to the beginning and
ending phrases... In my beginning is my end...in my end is my beginning, is that
East Coker is where Andrew Eliot, the founder of the American Eliot line, came
from.  I believe that his emigration to England and his embrace of the Anglican
faith were at least partly motivated by a desire to reconnect with his "roots".
Are any of the pre-1648 (not sure that date is right, but not too far off - I
believe that is when Andrew came over) Eliots also buried either in the church
or the cemetery?

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 12:22:16 1996
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  B. To UNSUBSCRIBE, send the following message to
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     (SIGNOFF TSE also works.)  You do not have to add your name when
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blessings



From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 12:59:48 1996
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:59:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Darlene Sybert <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Peter
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> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 01:14:42 GMT
> From: tosca <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]

>      Apparently you haven't been reading your mail for several days.  This
> whole situation has been cleared up; people have apologized, explained, and
> tried to make amends.  Please don't let us dig it all up again.  Let the
> feelings on all sides settle down and heal.


	So let me get this straight---
	One of the parameters for responding to this list is
	that it be done immediately.
	If one is unable to read the posts for a couple days,
	then one should not respond.
	
	Please confirm this so I will know what YOU allow.


Darlene Sybert                
http://www.missouri.edu/~c557506/index.htl 
University of Missouri at Columbia, English Dept
Office: 6 Tate Hall  Tu-Th 1:30-3:30 or by  appt
******************************************************************************
Attraction and Repulsion, Reason and Energy, Love and Hate
are necessary to human existence...-Wm Blake, MHH, plate 3
******************************************************************************

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 15:21:59 1996
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Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ol Ez and the Waste Land: A paper in the making

Hi, I'm Hal.  I'm an English major at Bridgewater State College in
Bridgewater, MA.  (Undergraduate)  This is my first post, but I read
'em all.  Anyway...

I'm writng a paper for my Modern American Poetry class
(please no more discussion on whether Eliot is Modern or American, 
for the sake of this paper he is), and my topic is: "Did Ezra Pound's 
Deletions of passages in the original transcript of "The Waste Land"
limit understanding of the poem and significantly take away from the poem?"
I have always felt that Pound deleted too much material and plan to argue
my case as such; however, I am having trouble finding secondary sources 
that don't all smile and say: "Ezra Pound's deletions of the Waste Land
shaped jumbled images into the masterpiece it is today."
If anyone has any specific passages that they believe should not have been
deleted I would welcome your input.  Also, if anyone knows of any 
books, secondary sources, articles, etc. that actually support the view \
I'm espousing please let me know.
Thank you in advance!

-Hal B.
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 16:10:55 1996
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:10:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE, Art & Artist, 2
To: George Simmers <[log in to unmask]>
cc: [log in to unmask]
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On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, George Simmers wrote:
> >
> Am I alone in finding Eliot's virtue actually the source of a certain 
> unlikeability, especially in his between-marriages middle years?
> 
> "The Idea of a Christian Society", for example, is such a mean-spirited, 
> humanly thin piece of writing . . .[his] an openness to existence in the 
> earlier writings, both prose and verse . . . fades away at this stage in
> his writing. 
> 
> I can't take Eliot as the model of a "Good Man", with his self-punishing 
> religion, and his reteat from the human.

			* * * 

Mr. Simmers:

	Not to prolong obtrusively so subjective a discussion, I have a 
fragment to share that goes to the issue of personal goodness.  In 
pulling the East Coker bits for Ms. Scott, I reread Rupert Hart-Davies' 
tribute delivered on 26 Sep 65 at the unveiling of the Eliot plaque at 
St. Michael's. Of course on such occasions we anticipate only encomia.  
And yet a defining element arises here: what evidence and context shall 
we consider in assaying a man's goodness?  Rather than draw so important 
a conclusion from this fragment of the work or that, might we not 
especially value the testimony of those who have actually known the 
person to help us round out our sense of the man's personal quality?  

	Hart-Davies:

	"In appearance he was the opposite of the romantic idea of what a 
poet should look like, as exemplified by his lifelong friend Ezra Pound.  
No long hair, Byronic collars or unusual clothes for him.  He was always 
neatly and inconspicuously dressed -- elegantly and always suitably, for 
he had a great sense of fittingness and tradition.  His lined face 
usually grave, almost solemn, but in private, laughter kept breaking 
through.  When you were with him you knew for certain he was a great man, 
even though you might not be able to explain exactly why.  I suspect it 
had something to do with his obvious goodness.  A younger poet, W.H. 
Auden, wrote of him after his death:

	'To me the proof of a man's goodness is the effect he has 
upon others.  So long as one was in Eliot's presence, one felt it was 
impossible to say or do anything base.'

	"That remark is completely true, but to someone who did not know 
Eliot it might suggest a rather priggish or forbidding person, a 
spoilsport, whereas in fact he was one of the most amusing and 
entertaining companions you could imagine.  He had a lovely sense of 
fun.  He loved jokes of all kinds. . . and was a superb teller of amusing 
stories, which were made all the funnier by his precise diction and 
deadpan expression.

	. . .

	"Now the end and the beginning are one, and as you pass this 
tablet on the wall, say a prayer, by all means, for the great poet it 
commemorates, but above all, say a prayer for the great and good man whom 
we remember today, on his birthday, with joy, with gratitude, and with love."

					***

 
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 16:41:52 1996
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From: "Jonathan Crowther" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 22:37:06 +0000
Subject: Re: TSE art & artists
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Priority: normal
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> 
> I wonder if Mr.Crowther would be kind enough to enlighten me on one little
> point, as I have not had the opportunity to visit East Coker: I understand that
> the reason TSE wished to be buried in East Coker, and part of the personal
> significance of the title East Coker and its relation to the beginning and
> ending phrases... In my beginning is my end...in my end is my beginning, is that
> East Coker is where Andrew Eliot, the founder of the American Eliot line, came
> from.  I believe that his emigration to England and his embrace of the Anglican
> faith were at least partly motivated by a desire to reconnect with his "roots".
> Are any of the pre-1648 (not sure that date is right, but not too far off - I
> believe that is when Andrew came over) Eliots also buried either in the church
> or the cemetery?
> 
> 
> Andrew Eliot was baptised at St Michael's in 1627.  The church 
registers', dating from 1560, have an entry dated July 1563 "Elliot 
(sic), Katherine daughter of Stephen baptised."  At that time there 
were four Elliotts (sic) living in the village, William, Stephen, Jerome and 
Henry.  The register shows that William and Stephen died and were 
buried in the village.  There is no trace of Jerome and Henry.

John Elliott, son of William was buried on 20 June 1645.  After 1664 
there are no more Elliott entries.  TSE died on 4 January 1965.

In his address on 26 September 1965 Rupert Hart Davies says that TSE 
visited East Coker several times over a period of years, his last 
visit being in 1939 when he took some photos of the village and the 
church.  Are these the photographs in the album viewed in the 
lamplight in the poem?  I mean why put photos in a poem that no one can see ?  

Isn't the valid strategy for reading TSE to read him literally ?  No, 
hang on, I didn't mean to threaten all those academics out there !  
Back to the bank!
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 17:03:22 1996
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 21 Feb 1996 15:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 20 Feb 1996, at 23:28:47,
thus spake Dr. Gary Davis:

>> That's why it speaks for itself. He could more easily have been a
>> teacher (was one for a while, actually).
DG>
DG>Can one not be a teacher or a banker and a poet at the same time?

Good question. Wallace Stevens sold insurance.
Ezra Pound started a whole operation called Bel Esprit to
raise money to help Eliot in particular, but writers in
general, escape the system. I think Hemingway applied for
Bel Esprit but was turned down for aesthetic reasons.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 17:12:03 1996
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:10:19 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: East Coker
To: [log in to unmask]
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TSE and East Coker---HMMMMMMMMMM

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Shall be, to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time
And all shall be well
All all manner of thing shall be well

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 17:32:32 1996
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:31:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE, Art & Artist, 2
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Wednesday, 21 Feb 1996, at 11:40:32,
thus spake George Simmers:

GS>Paul Sonnenberg wrote:
>>	Among the moderns, I unapologetically suggest, T.S. Eliot's 
>>record, however blemished, exhibits a preponderance of evidence 
>>supporting the conclusion that he was a "Good Man."...
>>
GS>Am I alone in finding Eliot's virtue actually the source of a certain 
GS>unlikeability, especially in his between-marriages middle years?
GS>
GS>"The Idea of a Christian Society", for example, is such a mean-spirited, 
GS>humanly thin piece of writing - as though Eliot was pretending the Sweeney 
GS>within him no longer existed. There's an openness to existence in the 
GS>earlier writings,both prose and verse, that fades away at this stage in his
GS>writing. 
GS>
GS>I can't take Eliot as the model of a "Good Man", with his self-punishing 
GS>religion, and his reteat from the human.  But as the model of an artist, 
GS>whose best works contain phrases after which you'll never see things the 
GS>same again  -  Oh yes!

The video THE MYSTERIOUS MR. ELIOT quotes (without source) Eliot as
saying something to the effect that -- In an age in which everyone
is trying to escape, a person going in the opposite direction will
seem to run away. I think I have the words almost perfectly there.
Anyone know what the source is?

I would certainly agree that Eliot did not abide by the fashionable
philosophical and emotional stances of his time. I still think he
was as good a man as most of us get to be. That he never republished AFTER
STRANGE GODS and that he faced the ghosts of racism and class prejudice
in THE ELDER STATESMAN would suggest a distinct change in attitude.
Having the central character in THE ELDER STATESMAN contemplate his
death under a beach tree suggests something of a belief in the value
of pagan mythology. All of his naturalist plays put their characters
through the ringer for what we would probably today call sexist attitudes
as well. So he may have had his faults, like the rest of us, and he may
indeed have had a narrow focus for his goals of social reemption. But
just think, the Chritian, white middle/upper class is thought of as
the source of a lot of what is wrong in the world. Eliot's point was
precisely that that class lacked values. He wanted to wake it
up with the example of the lower classes and their values. And it
was values bad or good, not just holier than thou stuff. Could it
be such a bad goal to want to reform the most influential group of
people in English speaking society? I suspect his positive approach
has a better chance of succeeding than the endless negative badgering
that that class usually gets.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 18:59:41 1996
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:58:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ash Wednesday
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 20 Feb 1996, at 20:46:40,
thus spake Jonathan Crowther:

JC>hopefully in your beginning), read along.  Madame Sostoris may or may 
JC>not approve: to be conscious is not to be in time.
JC>
JC>        The moment in the drafty church at smokefall....... :)

Madame Sosostris no doubt taught Mrs. Porter's daughters in
SWEENEY AGNOISTES how to read the Tarot. I think it was Percy
Wyndham Lewis, having read THE COCKTAIL PARTY who asked Eliot
in a letter if Mrs. Porter and Mrs. Shuttlethwaite weren't
closely related. Eliot replied strongly in the positive.
I know Mrs. Shuttlethwaite would approve.


Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 19:19:07 1996
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 17:18:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Eliot's Magi . . . and Yeats's
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 20 Feb 1996, at 16:21:23,
thus spake Gabrielle Loperfido:

>> But Eliot's protagonist is ready for death, whether a despairing one
>>clutching his old gods, or a redemptive one into a new birth.  
M>My understanding of the final wish for another death has always been the
M>rather literal wish that those living during Christ's life, but before his
M>death might wish for.
M>No one is redeemed until Jesus' death in the form of the
M>crucifixtion. 

I get the picture of an old man ("All that was a long time ago"),
doing his memoirs. He's telling them to an amanuensis who writes
them down and then recites them back to him. The passage in single
quotes at the beginning would be such a recitation. Then the magus
continues. At an important part he says "Set down/this set down/this"
suggesting that he is picking his words very carefully. He is seriously
concerned about what is birth and what is death. Normally birth is
a struggle. This birth, the virgin birth, was easy. But for the travellers
it was hard. The birth of faith in their souls with everyone saying
it was all folly, "was hard and bitter agony for us." It was really
like human death.

Then he goes on to talk about the trip home, and about how
alien seem his countrymen and his former way of life. That life had
in fact died for him, when his new faith struggled and was born.
So now he wants to be with those who aren't alien to him.
How to be with them? Through his own physical death?

Exactly what death is referred to in that last line is hard to say.
If it is a reference to Christ's death, then that means it has
been less than 33 years from the original event to this recording.
Somehow, for me, that doesn't quite fit with "All that was
a long time ago", but I don't deny that it is a possibility.
My own preference is that he wants to be with Christ in paradise,
suggesting his final physical death would be welcome and easy.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 20:30:01 1996
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 18:29:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TSE, Art & Artist, 2
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Tuesday, 20 Feb 1996, at 14:46:06,
thus spake Paul Sonnenburg:

PS>	Among the moderns, I unapologetically suggest, T.S. Eliot's 
PS>record, however blemished, exhibits a preponderance of evidence 
PS>supporting the conclusion that he was a "Good Man."  Whatever his 
PS>putative personal failings that might have any public relevance, they 
PS>appear to me to be more than outweighed in ultimate significance by his 
PS>enormous artistic and professional accomplishment.

I don't think Eliot's flaws would have mattered one fakir's needle
if he hadn't espoused Christian ideas in prose. He could have appeared
as holy as the Pope and been as clumsy a philanderer as the Prince
and his work and personal being would have been quite acceptable.
But my goodness, don't some people seem to think he preached, and
that's what bothers them. He was simply working out the dynamics
of his own ideas, for the minds who were in his own ambit, but
I guess according to modern protocols of political correctness,
that is unacceptable. How do they respond, without dirtying their
hands in the same unattractive Christian muck? The good old fashioned
ad hominem of course - the last refuge of the intellectually defeated.

There are lots of reasons to challenge Eliot, both in and out of
his art and his polemic, but the man himself is, I think, out of
bounds as far as lit. grit goes.

PS>In reaching her 
PS>disenchantment before abandoning E. as her dissertation topic, ....
Perhaps it was more of a subconcious process. Eliot has a way of getting
in one's psyche and wankling around.

The citations concerning Eliot's crinkled conscience really speak
to the fact that he was his own most condemnatory judge.

I sometimes wonder what Eliot thought about all the flack he had
to take when he abandoned the great modern ship of freedom
from belief. There's a kind of hierarchy of sins against such
modernity and Eliot committed them all. Original sin is to have
any faith in anything that is unverifiable. A venial sin is to
belong to an organised religion. A mortal sin is to state beliefs
publicly. Not a good idea, I think, if one doesn't have a heavy
duty flack jacket. On the back it might say:

		The "This is all folly" Follies.

Cheers,
Peter
*************************************************************
*  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
*            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
*************************************************************
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 20:44:40 1996
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 20:44:04 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: TSE, Art & Artist, 2
To: [log in to unmask]
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	I think the inspiring thing about T.S. Eliot the man was that he
actually believed in something.  Rather difficult to believe in absolutes in
this day and age.  As TSE once noted, "It is the worst kind of treason to
believe the right thing for the wrong reasons."  I think he was his own critic
in that regard.
Nathan Freeburg

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 21:03:07 1996
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 22:01:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "Christine R. Gray" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: respecting TSE
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I would like to make a comment on my own behalf as I have received 
several pieces of mail privately from others on the list in regard to my 
comment about TSE and my disenchantment with the man.  When I chose to not 
write on TSE I had been living in China for a year and was able to rethink 
much of what I had studied up to that point.  I realized then as I do now 
that TSE is perhaps the most important poet in 20th c. Western 
literature.  I quote him, teach his poetry, have nearly all of his 
books, including several first editions, some of which are signed, and 
have listened in wonder as  my stepmother speak of him.  (She knew 
him.)  Still, I stand my initial comment:  there are several aspects of 
the man that I do not respect.  christine gray
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 21:54:33 1996
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From: hmm <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
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On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Peter Montgomery wrote:

> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Peter Montgomery <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Discussing Eliot on the Internet (coninued)
> 
> On Tuesday, 20 Feb 1996, at 23:28:47,
> thus spake Dr. Gary Davis:
> 
> >> That's why it speaks for itself. He could more easily have been a
> >> teacher (was one for a while, actually).
> DG>
> DG>Can one not be a teacher or a banker and a poet at the same time?
> 
> Good question. Wallace Stevens sold insurance.
> Ezra Pound started a whole operation called Bel Esprit to
> raise money to help Eliot in particular, but writers in
> general, escape the system. I think Hemingway applied for
> Bel Esprit but was turned down for aesthetic reasons.
> 
> Cheers,
> Peter
> *************************************************************
> *  Peter Montgomery               [log in to unmask]  *
> *            Exitus effigium effigies exituum               *
> *************************************************************
> 
Well, considering the profitability of poetry these days (isn't something 
like 2000 copies considered a bestselling poetry book), you HAVE to be 
something else...

michael
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 23:24:58 1996
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 00:24:46 -0500
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ol Ez and the Waste Land: A paper in the making

Dear Hal,
It is possible to argue that Pound's suggestions were all good ones, but it
is certainly possible to argue that Pound did not understand Eliot's
 enterprise nearly so well as people say he did.  Pound's objection to
Eliot's original epigraph, for example, indicates that his understanding was
less than profound.  
The epigraph was from Heart of Darkness:
"Did he live his life again in every detail of desire, temptation, and
surrender during that supreme moment of complete knowledge?  He cried in a
whisper at some image, at some vision--he cried out twice, a cry that was no
more than a breath--'The horror!  The horror!'"
Pound failed to see the importance (to Eliot and to the moral center of the
poem) of this  passage.  Eliot defended it as "the most appropriate I can
find, and somewhat elucidative."  
See READING THE WASTE LAND:  MODERNISM AND THE LIMITS OF INTERPRETATION by
myself and Joseph Bentley, pp. 43-44.
Good luck on your paper.
Jewel Spears Brooker
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 23:25:01 1996
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enburg for reminding us the memorial remarks by Hart Davies.
 They have been echoed by many of the younger Faber poets and by his actual
acquaintances.
Jewel Spears Brooker
From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 23:25:25 1996
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 00:24:46 -0500
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Eliot's Magi . . . and Yeats's

The comparison / contrast between Eliot's Magi and Yeats's is instructive.
 Another point that seems to me quite crucial is that for WBY, who had a
cyclical view of history, the Magi come again and again, but for Eliot, who
had a Christian and linear view,  they come once and for all.  
Jewel Spears Brooker

From [log in to unmask] Wed Feb 21 23:26:26 1996
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 00:25:53 -0500
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: the right deed for the wrong reason

Dear Mr. Freeburg,
You attribute to Eliot: 
 "It is the worst kind of treason to believe the right thing for the wrong
reasons."

You are referring to the words of Thomas in MURDER IN THE CATHEDRAL.  In
resisting the fourth and greatest temptation, he says:
"Now is my way clear, now is the meaning plain:
Temptation shall not come in this kind again.
The last temptation is the greatest treason:
To do the right deed for the wrong reason."

The point is that it is a "temptation," an inclination to give in to sin.
 And so, Thomas is saying the opposite of what you suggest.
And of course Thomas is a fiction, a character in a play anyway.

Jewel Spears Brooker
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 22 00:30:04 1996
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Date: 22 Feb 96 01:17:12 EST
From: Andrew Howald <[log in to unmask]>
To: TSE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Ol Ez and the Waste Land: A paper in the making
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

********************************************************************************
I have always felt that Pound deleted too much material and plan to argue
my case as such; however, I am having trouble finding secondary sources 
that don't all smile and say: "Ezra Pound's deletions of the Waste Land
shaped jumbled images into the masterpiece it is today."
If anyone has any specific passages that they believe should not have been
deleted I would welcome your input.  
-Hal B.
*********************************************************************************
*

Hal:

	I'm afraid I can't help you because I don't have a facsimile of the
manuscript handy and moreover because I happen to believe that Pound's editing
of the poem was ENTIRELY SALUTARY.  (In other words I'm posting this merely  out
of contrariness; couldn't resist.)  As I recall it, the original manuscript
droned on with enough blank verse to leave one feeling bludgeoned, and in some
places went (to use Pound's phrase) "over the mark"-- for example when "the
young man carbuncular" stops to "piss."  And aren't there several very apt
changes in diction? The one I remember is the change from Eliot's unsubtle
"atrocious" to Pound's far richer "demotic."  But I'll be interested in others'
reactions to your query as I don't rule out the possibility of Pound's being in
some cases  a meddler.

Yours,

Andrew

***************************************************
"De la musique avant toute chose"
                                       --Verlaine
***************************************************

From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 22 00:38:22 1996
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 01:38:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Sonnenburg <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: How Exceedingly Pleasing
To: [log in to unmask]
cc: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Dear Professor Brooker,

	With apologies for intruding, but confident that my view is widely
held among the members of this group acquainted with your work, I shall
simply tell you what a pleasure it is to find your voice among ours this
evening. 

	Some months ago I acquired a copy of "Mastery & Escape" at
Washington's Chapters Book Store, and was swiftly seduced into perusing
the present state of Eliot scholarship.  Although routinely browsing
primary Eliot texts and a modest collection of secondary materials
accumulated since undergraduate days in the late 1950s, I had rather
abandoned any attempt to stay abreast of recent developments: so much
seemed bleak and unimaginative. 

	But your unstuffy commentary, lively selection of materials, and 
unabashed but decorous zeal are infectious.  And when this list was 
suggested to me in January, I joined to see what there was to see.  It's 
been a most productive enterprise in many ways.

	And your good work has been the gateway back to so much pleasure.  
We look forward to your participation and trust that our sharing may be 
worthy of your time. Thanks for joining us.

	How pleasant to meet Professor Brooker!

			Cordially,

			Paul Sonnenburg
			Washington, DC
From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 22 01:12:14 1996
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 02:10:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Swets <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ash Wednesday
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Can somebody e-mail me a copy of Eliot's "Ash Wednesday"? I was planning 
on reading it to my creative writing class today, but my book's 
disappeared, and our very small library doesn't have it.
Thanks.
*******************************************************************************
                                 __  __
COLOR ME ORANGE                  | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582; Fax: 954-782-4535
R. D. Swets (Archbishop Bob)     | | | | Zion Lutheran School:    954-421-3146,
170 N.E. 18th Street       ______| | | |______   Ext. 135;    Fax: 954-421-4250
Pompano Beach, FL  33060  (________) (________)  Ft.  Lauderdale  Sun-Sentinel:
[log in to unmask]                954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676
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From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 22 01:20:41 1996
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 02:20:03 GMT
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From: [log in to unmask] (tosca)
Subject: aka Jackie Du Pont
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Dear Jewel,

     I was so glad to see your name on the TSE List.  I was just speaking of
you today to a friend at shool and said I had to get in touch with you.  I'm
up because I'm not sleeping well and decided to check my mail. I can't
believe this. But, what more appropriate place to see your name but on this
particular list.

     How have you been?  I hope, well.  I want to thank you for your card at
the holidays and apologize for the delay in correspondeng. I have a
satisfactory reason.

     This fall was pretty grim for me.  My son, age 29, died at the end of
October from a condition resulting from an automobile accident of last
spring.  I ended up not sending out any Christmas cards, etc.  And then I
got pleurisy and was out of work for a couple of weeks.  I am better now,
and as I said, I am so glad to see your name on the list.

     I didn't go to the MLA in Chicago and I'm sorry I missed it.  By the
way, since I have you here, as I hope a captive audience, when I received
the latest brochure from the MLA yesterday, the one inre proposals, I
noticed, what was for me, pretty upsetting.  Apparently a woman got gently
forced from the organization when it was found out she was no longer a
graduate student, or a teacher.  I have, as you know, been out of grad
school for over a year and don't intend to go back.  The reasons are the
same as others who you might have seen on this list.  I believe I told
you,but to refresh your memory, it was because of the over-emphasis on
theory and criticism and too little on literature, the reading of novels I
found offensive and of too little value - certainly not what I would call
literature!  Enough of that.
     
     I am feeling now that I had better not stay a member of the MLA since
their rules are so strict on this matter.  I rather feel I am cheating.
Please give me your opinion on this.  I would miss it, I know that, but if
they don't want me, frankly I don't want them.  I could join the ASLS{?}.

     Sorry to talk to your ear off, in a manner of speaking.  By the way, I
love this list and have actually hopped in a couple of times.  However, I
have mostly written to several people and 'lurked.'  I also saw your name on
the Christlit list. 

     How is school and what are your working on now?  Something new about
our great man, or something new?  I am still obsessed about him and have
continued to collect, and collect, books about him, and have now managed to
purchase quite a few first editions, some signed, by Eliot.  I am still
learning even if not in graduate school.

     Again, so nice to see you on the list.

     Take care,

Jackie Du Pont
Northeastern University
Boston

p.s.  How do you like my new e-mail name?  


>enburg for reminding us the memorial remarks by Hart Davies.
> They have been echoed by many of the younger Faber poets and by his actual
>acquaintances.
>Jewel Spears Brooker
>
>

From [log in to unmask] Thu Feb 22 01:36:41 1996
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:36:51 +0900 (KST)
From: Joon-Soo Bong <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ol Ez and the Waste Land: A paper in the making
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Dear Hal,

My bibliographical curiosity made me respond to your post. I am also
dying to know whether there is any critic who argues against Pound's
editorial performance.  Three years ago I concocted a list of books
and articles dealing with the Pound-Eliot collaboration on the Waste
Land manuscripts--I checked the list again this morning but couldn't
find the kind of article that you are looking for.  I'm not saying
that my list is an exhaustive one, but I am wondering why I cannot
remember any major critic who _resolutely_ defends the original
version (this must be a sad combination of faulty memory and
incomplete research). However, I seem to remember that William
Empson liked the lengthy voyage n