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TSE  March 2018

TSE March 2018

Subject:

Re: Let's have some variety

From:

"Cox, Carrol" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Mon, 12 Mar 2018 21:10:16 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines)

I've learned to check my "Junk" line often, since whatever filter is operating, it frequently misjudges. 



I hope my 73/4 old memory is accurate. Graves is always interesting, even at his most kooky.                    



Carrol



-----Original Message-----

From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Gish

Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 11:11 PM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Let's have some variety



	This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing <http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing> 

Feedback <http://aka.ms/SafetyTipsFeedback> 	 

It turns out that it's in Graves's Oxford Poetry Lectures, and they can be bought. Thanks for this. I think I mixed up the dates, and Eliot's treatment of Dido and Aeneas is in the 1951 lecture on Virgil and Christian Society--I have to check. In any case, he thinks the only significance of Dido's tragedy is that it was painful to Aeneas and a hard burden for him to bear. Others do think, as Graves apparently did, that Aeneas was cruel and wrong--even if he followed the gods. The way he did it was pretty cold. But in book 6, he claims to be deeply sorry. It's a fascinating and complicated story. Eliot's take is interesting--a sort of mix but not about the pain of Dido.

Nancy



On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:





	Dear Carrol,



	Wonderful. I need to find that. I read the talks of the presidents of the London Virgil Society--Eliot was the first, and his talk is the 1944 lecture--and they have vastly different views of Aeneas. But they all seem to be preoccupied with the Dido-Aeneas story. 



	I will look for this.

	Thanks,

	Nancy



	On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 8:47 PM, Cox, Carrol <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

	



		Benton Harbor High library subbed to the Virginia Review (I think that was its title) and while browsing in the library once I picked up a copy with an essay by Robert Graves on Virgil (and he hated both Virgil AND Aeneas, as though Aeneis and Virgil were evil contemporaries. He particularly lashed Aeneas for the episode in hades; he argued that Dido's husband sis nor know of her affair with Aeneas, and that is why she turned away from him, to avoid exposure. Aeneas was a cad for his behavior.

		

		I don't remember the date, but probably a volume in the early  1940s. And this is the only part of the essay I remember. I was probably 14 or 15  at the time.

		

		Carrol

		







		-----Original Message-----

		From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Gish

		Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2018 5:04 PM

		To: [log in to unmask]

		Subject: Re: Let's have some variety

		

		I like the idea of variety, but I would like even more if we went back to having real discussions. So much new material is coming out on Eliot--prose, letters, complete poems--that it would be nice to talk about them in some genuine way.

		

		I'm especially interested, for example, in Eliot and WWII, given that he worked in LLoyd's bank on reparations after WWI and praised Keynes's The Economic Consequences of the War. And what I have been writing about is Eliot and Virgil. If anyone has ideas about either--or, indeed, any thoughts about his writing, I'd love to know. The list used to be a forum; that has not been true now for several years.

		

		Best,

		Nancy

		

		On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 9:07 PM, Cox, Carrol <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

		

		

		        his wellbelovéd colonel(trig

		        westpointer most succinctly bred)

		        took erring Olaf soon in hand;

		        but--though an host of overjoyed

		        noncoms(first knocking on the head

		        him)do through icy waters roll

		        that helplessness which others stroke

		        with brushes recently employed

		        anent this muddy toiletbowl,

		        while kindred intellects evoke

		        allegiance per blunt instruments--

		        Olaf(being to all intents

		        a corpse and wanting any rag

		        upon what God unto him gave)

		        responds,without getting annoyed

		        "I will not kiss your fucking flag"

		

		        straightway the silver bird looked grave

		        (departing hurriedly to shave)

		

		        but--though all kinds of officers

		        (a yearning nation's blueeyed pride)

		        their passive prey did kick and curse

		        until for wear their clarion

		        voices and boots were much the worse,

		        and egged the firstclassprivates on

		        his rectum wickedly to tease

		        by means of skilfully applied

		        bayonets roasted hot with heat--

		        Olaf(upon what were once knees)

		        does almost ceaselessly repeat

		        "there is some shit I will not eat"

		

		        our president,being of which

		        assertions duly notified

		        threw the yellowsonofabitch

		        into a dungeon,where he died

		

		        Christ(of His mercy infinite)

		        i pray to see;and Olaf,too

		

		        preponderatingly because

		        unless statistics lie he was

		        more brave than me:more blond than you.

		

		        Copyright 1931, © 1959, 1991 by the Trustees for E. E. Cummings Trust. Copyright © 1979 by Geo

		

		

		

		







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