LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  December 2014

TSE December 2014

Subject:

Re: Eliot's Note on Rymer and cogency (?)

From:

Peter Dillane <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Wed, 24 Dec 2014 10:26:01 +1100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (129 lines)

Thanks Rickard

I had someone recently take issue with my quoting "lasciate ogne speranza voi ch'intrate" based on their memory of the Everyman dual language edition which has editing now not so well accepted. The chiave note is very interesting

Cheers Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rickard A. Parker
Sent: Wednesday, 24 December 2014 10:14 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Eliot's Note on Rymer and cogency (?)

On Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:47:49 +1100, Peter Dillane <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> 
> Now this might be a moment to bring up something which
> has grumbled with me for some time. Eliot refers to
> himself in the Dante essay as having once not been
> skilled (sic) in Italian. The implication that he was
> now skilled . This is a kind of usage which may have
> been conventional but these days I associate it with
> the vainglorious way some refer to themselves as having
> "mastered" a musical instrument. When I hear this I
> think do they mean they have mastered it like James
> Taylor or Martha Argerich. Anyway to the point the
> Cavlacanti "Perch'io no spero tornar mai giammai" has
> the verb "tornare" which means not " turn " which is
> "girare" but "to return". I have modest Italian -
> enough to get laid or fed but I struggled last week
> trying to explain what I thought of a piece of modern
> art to an Italian speaker - and I would be interested
> in what people think of the use of this by Eliot. Do
> you think he has full knowledge when he says "Because I
> do not hope to turn etc" and that he is implying that
> he is not talking about returning to a situation rather
> about deviating or turning from a prospective future?
> Or has he just lumped for what sounds like the Italian
> - which is a common problem for English speakers with
> Italian.
> 
> Happy Christmas folks
> 
> Pete
> 


I don't know much about turning ("To every season, turn, turn, turn" & "To turn, to turn will be our delight" exceptions) but Eliot did have a problem with translating Dante earlier (in TWL). I shore up some fragments below.

......................

The Waste Land:

DA
Dayadhvam: I have heard the key	            411
Turn in the door once and turn once only	 
We think of the key, each in his prison	 
Thinking of the key, each confirms a prison	 
Only at nightfall, aetherial rumours
Revive for a moment a broken Coriolanus

411 Cf. Inferno, XXXIII, 46:
    “ed io sentii chiavar l’uscio di sotto 
    all’orribile torre.” 


......................

Alienation:
edited by Harold Bloom
Infobase Publishing, Jan 1, 2009 - Alienation (Social psychology) in literature - 222 pages

"'Each in His Prison'; Damnation and Alienation in 'The Waste Land'"
Matthew J. Bolton

Page 201

https://books.google.com/books?id=zQLTOk18LwMC&pg=PA201

   Ironically, Eliot's haunting and beautiful rendering of Ugolino's line, and the echoes that follow it (“We think of the key, each in his prison / Thinking of the key, each confirms a prison / only at nightfall. ...”) rests on a mistranslation of Dante's text. Eliot, who had a good reading knowledge of Italian, had studied the Commedia in its original language at Harvard. Here as elsewhere in his endnotes he includes the fragments of Dante's original text that he has reworked: “ed io sentii chiavar l'uscio di sotto / all'orribile torre.” Yet Eliot, as he later admitted in one of three essays he wrote on Dante, was no Italian scholar. In translating Ugolino's line, he renders chiavar as “to lock” or “to turn the key.” This makes sense if one is familiar with the modern italian word chiave, meaning “key.” Yet “key” is a newer meaning of the word; in Dante's time a chiave was a nail, and a better translation of chiavar would be “to nail up.” Translator Mark Musa renders Ugolino's line this way: “Then from below I heard them driving nails into the dreadful tower's door." Nailing a door shut suggests a finality that turning a key does not, and Ugolino, high above in his tower, might just as well be hearing the nails driven into his own coffin and those of his sons.

   Yet The Waste Land profits from Eliot's misreading of Ugolino's line, for the poem closes with the suggestion that the key that turned in the door might turn again. ...

......................

Dante:

Già eran desti, e l'ora s'appressava
che il cibo ne soleva essere addotto,
e per suo sogno ciascun dubitava;

ed io sentii chiavar l'uscio di sotto
all'orribile torre: ond' io guardai
nel viso a' miei figliuoi senza far motto.

..............................

Mark Musa's translation (creepy):

And then they awoke. It was around the time
   they usually brought our food to us, but now
   each one of us was full of dread from dreaming;

then from below I heard them driving nails
   into the dreadful tower's door; with that,
   I stared in silence at my flesh and blood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=GlJo4h4KEPQC&pg=PA181

......................

An undated Dent edition (probably 1903) with original Italian on the left and on the right an English translation by John Aitken Carlyle (this, I believe, is the one carried by Eliot):

They were now awake, and the hour approaching at which our food used to be brought us, and each was anxious from his dream,

and below I heard the outlet of the horrible tower locked up : whereat I looked into the faces of my sons, without uttering a word.

......................

A Dent edition of 1911, translation by C. E. Wheeler (closest to The Waste Land):

Now were they wakened, now that hour drew nigh
when they were wont to bring our food before,
and on each heart fear from his dream did lie.

And then I heard the key turn in the door
of the horrible tower; then I gazed steadily
at my sons' faces, but spake no more.

......................

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager