LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for TSE Archives


TSE Archives

TSE Archives


TSE@PO.MISSOURI.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

TSE Home

TSE Home

TSE  July 2014

TSE July 2014

Subject:

Re: Is this mean-spirited?

From:

Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Wed, 9 Jul 2014 23:10:48 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (93 lines)

CM construes "mean-spirited" as a literary judgment. It's been over 50 years since I read Frost extensively and intensively, & I have forgotten most details. I remember an impression at about a little past half-way through the Collected Poems: In too many of them Frost was sneering at the reader: he would write a poem "imitating" his own style, & behind the poem was the poet sneering at the reader: I bet you  don't know that this poem is a fake.  Just an impression, which I wouldn't try to elaborate or defend.

Frost _could_ be pretty mean, but it's a hoot that cr thinks Mending Wall is an instance. As Nancy points out, the neighbor is the speaker of the fatuous line about good fences. 
There are lines in 4Q in which the poet comes close to accusing himself of having been  mean-spirited -- 

And last, the rending pain of re-enactment
  Of all that you have done, and been; the shame
Of things ill done and done to others' harm
  Which once you took for exercise of virtue.

These are the words of the "compound ghost," but that whole section is deliberately vague. The "you" of the last line?????

Poems don't discover or prove "true" propositions; they enact possibilities. Yeats's Irish Airman is very nearly a monster (he kills for fun). But the poem won't let the reader be easily satisfied with merely recognizing that. _One_ (but ONLY one) of the elements of the typist episode in TWL is the meanness of telling the story that way. So in that case meanness is a literary virtue. One need not like either Frost or Eliot (or Yeats) to find their poems powerful.

Carrol


-----Original Message-----
From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Gish
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 9:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Is this mean-spirited?

This is not an affirmation of fences. It is a reaction against it and the foolish neighbor. The narrator does not say the line about good neighbors; the neighbor does, and the next lines mock him for it.

Whether that is mean-spirited is not really a question that makes sense unless you identify with the naive neighbor or the sardonic speaker.
N

>>> Chanan Mittal 07/09/14 8:56 PM >>>
:)

He is all pine and I am apple orchard. 
My apple trees will never get across 
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him. 
He only says, ‘Good fences make good neighbors.'

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kPjVuMG-UAw

CR 

On Wednesday, July 9, 2014, P <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


	Frost wasn't a jazz man. He believed in filling in all the spaces. No room for open resonance, so his effects, such as they were, were intellectual. Subtle New England morality. He may well have been better than any other poet of the century. There was just one thing wrong. It was the wrong century. Good fences sell good dope. 
	
	Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);> > wrote:
	
	My Untermeyer is 1950; it has a lot of Frost but neither of these. I can't seem to find if there was a later edition. Were these poems later than 1950? One would think that easy to find, but I haven't on line. Back to books.
	N
	
	>>> Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);> > 07/07/14 9:15 PM >>>
	Pound was responsible for getting Frost's first book published. He also predicted that Frost would sneer at his poetry (or something like that).
	
	Frost was an SOB -- but (for example) "Design" and "Provide, Provide" are about as good as anything published in the 20th-c. I don't remember what Frost poems were in the Untermyer anthology. Randall Jarrell wrote some fine pieces on Frost.
	
	
	Carrol
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);> ] On Behalf Of P
	Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 7:48 PM
	To: [log in to unmask] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);> 
	Subject: Re: Is this mean-spirited?
	
	Perhaps E. was still smarting from what Pound did to TWL. I f it doesn't have a sensory effect, get rid of it. Frost's work was rather periphrastic in a worn out poetical fashion. E. was as hard on himself. Think of all the crumpled scraps of verse strewing 2nd rate stuff across his floor. Indeed, artists can be very mean-spirited. Only their way is right. About art. Politics - another matter. Anyone know what Pound thought of Frost? 
	P. 
	
	P <[log in to unmask] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);> > wrote:
	
	>That reminds me of Carrol.
	>3 New England's bad mouthing each other. 
	>
	>"Rickard A. Parker" <[log in to unmask] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);> > wrote:
	>
	>>Is this mean-spirited?
	>>I think so.
	>> Mr Frost seems the nearest equivalent to an English poet,
	>> specializing in New England torpor;
	>> his verse, it is regretfully said, is uninteresting,
	>> and what is uninteresting is unreadable,
	>> and what is unreadable is not read.
	>> There, that is done. 
	>>
	>>LONDON LETTER
	>>
	>>T.S. Eliot
	>>April, 1922
	>>
	>>Published in The Dial magazine
	>>May, 1922 
	>>
	>>http://www.std.com/~raparker/exploring/tseliot/works/london-letters/london-letter-1922-05.html
	

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



PO.MISSOURI.EDU

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager