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TSE  September 2012

TSE September 2012

Subject:

Re: Racism and War, was Article: "To College Students Considering a Course in American Poetry"

From:

Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Sat, 1 Sep 2012 11:54:29 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (239 lines)

Just a note. My reference was NOT to Russian involvement (or
non-involvement) at the end of the war. My reference was to a battle fought
_before_ the war had even begun, in 1939. I'll look up some more accurate
details of it later.

Carrol

Tom Gray:

> In response to the Russian involvement in the defeat of Japan, here is
another
> version of the story from PBS
> 
> 
>
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/macarthur/filmmore/reference/interview/maihafe
> r01.html
> 
> ===============================================
> MAIHAFER: There's a wonderful story about General Derevyanko, the Russian
> representative. And, remember now, the Russians had gotten into the war,
the
> very tail end, after the bomb had been dropped and the war was for all
intents
> and purposes over with. And, yet they wanted to be full time partners.
And,
> Derevyanko came into MacArthur's office and said something to the effect
that, he
> was going to start bringing Russians troops into Honshu. And, MacArthur
said,
> "When first Russian lands, when any Russian lands here in Japan, the whole
> Russian delegation is going to be thrown in jail, beginning with you,
General."
> (Laughing) And, Derevyanko , no one had ever talked to him that way before
and
> he looked at him and said, "My God I think you would." And, he slunk out
of the
> office and no more was heard about bringing Russian troops into Japan.
> 
> =============================================
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Tom Gray <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 4:31:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Racism and War, was Article: "To College Students Considering
a
> Course in American Poetry"
> 
> 
> Carrol Cox writes:
> 
> =================
> Had Roosevelt and Churchill approved the bombing of the rail lines leading
> to the death camps (thus saving several million lives) one might see some
> redeeming features for WW2,
> ==============
> 
> This is simply incorrect. It had been learned by experience that the
bombing of rail
> line had little to no effect. They were easily repaired and the bombing
would offer
> no impediment to the NAZIs. What was found effective was to  bomb the
city-
> based marshaling yards in which trains were assembled. This would damage a
> vital facility and, importantly, destroy rolling stock and maintenance
facilities that
> could not be easily replaced.  This was done as part of the war effort.
Bombing
> the lines to the death camps would only divert forces and delay the end of
the war
> thus leaving the NAZI's more time to murder.
> 
> The statement about Japan is also not correct. A spy in Japan had
determined that
> the Japanese had no plans to attack the Soviet Union. Thus the forces in
the East
> could be brought west to deal with the Nazis at Stalingrad. Stalin also
insisted on a
> second front being opened constantly. The Russians only declared war on
Japan
> after the atom bombs had been dropped. They did this to be eligible to
take
> advantage of the surrender. They wanted to control an area in Japan but
General
> MacArthur told them to . Well he told them that they couldn't. They had
been
> holding negotiations with the Japanese ambassador abut an alliance with
Japan in
> the final months of  the war. They had asked the Japanese what they could
offer
> and when they couldn't offer anything useful, they refused the offer. They
told the
> Japanese that the offer of the Imperial Fleet was of no interest because
the
> Imperial Fleet was at the bottom of the Pacific.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 7:53:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Racism and War, was Article: "To College Students Considering
a
> Course in American Poetry"
> 
> 
> I've been working on a longer response to Nancy's first post, but I want
to
> make a quick response to these posts between her and Tom Gray.
> 
> WW 1 was simply the most stupid & inexcusable war in human history, and I
> would make no distinctions between the Kaiser and Wilson as war criminals.
> William Jennings Bryan should be remembered not for the buffoonery of the
> Scopes Trial but for the most admirable act by any cabinet official in
U.S.
> history -- his resignation as Secretary of State when he saw that Wilson
was
> consciously and malignly manipulating the U.S. into the slaughter. The
> heroes of the war were the IWW, Eugene Debs, the participants in the
Easter
> Rebellion (slandered by Yeats in a great poem), various anarchists &
> pacifists, Luxemburg, Liebknectht, Trotsky, Stalin, Lenin, Bertrand
Russell,
> et al. Perhaps the most foolish line of poetry ever written was Yeats,
> "England may yet keep faith."
> 
> Had Roosevelt and Churchill approved the bombing of the rail lines leading
> to the death camps (thus saving several million lives) one might see some
> redeeming features for WW2, but I remain uncertain in my judgment of that
> war. The Soviet Union could have defeated Germany without assistance from
> the U.S., and in effect did so. The invasion had been halted before
military
> assistance reached the SU in any significant amount and before the Second
> Front in France. It had already defeated Japan in a great battle  there in
> 1939 before moving its troops back to the west just in time to meet
Hitler's
> invasion.
> 
> Carrol
> 
> Carrol
> 
> Carrol
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of Nancy Gish
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:11 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Racism and War, was Article: "To College Students Considering a
> Course in American Poetry"
> 
> Two things: yes, racism was marginalized, but it has erupted again in
> seriously disturbing ways; it is more coded but equally dangerous in the
> long run. When Texans talk of Civil War, and Militia groups go in for
> preparing to "take back" America--and, recently, killing, we have trouble.
> It's unfortunately much more alive than we thought.
> 
> WWI was a major factor that led to WWII. The "War to end wars" had no such
> effect--almost the opposite. And the 20th and 21st centuries have been
> extremely violent--with many smaller wars. They have not been in the main
> European countries, but they have not stopped. After WWII--Korea, Viet
Nam,
> Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, many interventions in the Middle East.
> 
> I am not saying they should never be fought or that it would have been ok
to
> let Germany win either World War: I do not know what solution may ever
> exist. But I do not see how one can look back and see either racism or war
> ended or at all as marginalized as we hoped and thought.
> Nancy
> 
> 
> >>> Tom Gray 08/30/12 6:15 PM >>>
> 
> Yes, racism is still alive but it has now been marginalized.  There are
> still examples of ethnic cleansing in the world and  the issue is ongoing.
> WW1 and WW2 ended it as  cause of great power war in Europe. That is great
> power wars that unleashed the horrors of industrialized warfare. Japan has
> been transformed. Germany has been transformed and the Europe is the
better.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: P <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:57:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Article: "To College Students Considering a Course in
American
> Poetry"
> 
> 
> Judging by what I'm hearing at the Republican Convention, that kind of
> thinking isn't dead yet.
> P.M.
> 
> Tom Gray <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> 
> WW1 and WW2 ended the philosophies of militarism and racial superiority.
> There were winners in all of this sacrifice and that is all of us. The
> racial superiority doctrines that led up to WW2 were there also in the
> causes of WW1 and were seen as so at the time.  So the reason that the
free
> thought behind this list can be found there as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Ken Armstrong <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:27:07 AM
> Subject: Re: Article: "To College Students Considering a Course in
American
> Poetry"
> 
> 
> On 8/29/2012 10:28 PM, Nancy Gish wrote:
> > After years of studying WWI and the poetry it inspired, I cannot,
myself,
> respond to poems that thrill to winning battles: no one ever really wins.
> 
>     Can't imagine what this means. We are conducting this list in English,
> after all, not German or Japanese. There's a reason for that.
> 
> Ken A
> 
> 
> 
> 

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