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TSE  June 2012

TSE June 2012

Subject:

Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?

From:

David Boyd <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Thu, 7 Jun 2012 03:49:21 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (420 lines)

Observations from UK, for what they are worth

I have worked in mainstream  departments of Government; in the 
Government-funded sector; and in the private sector, and very closely 
during this working life with academic institutions. It's very much my 
experience that the most dysfunctional of these workplaces were the 
academic institutions: the reasons why this should be so are obviously 
manifold and complex, but I think that a lot of them arise because the 
people who work for them tend to have almost unlimited job security and 
power within their particular spheres, yet little if any 
accountability. Whether or not an academic member of staff prospers 
depends much more on the internal politics and hierarchy of the 
institution than on any level of ability they my or may not possess, or 
their effectiveness in carrying out their job. The private sector has 
very different imperatives, not least, to compete efficiently in a 
marketplace, so simply cannot afford to be run like most academic 
institutions. To be sure, their respective functions are completely 
different, and it would be crazy to suggest that academic institutions 
should function like private companies in a competitive marketplace, 
but, having been insulated from almost all the major forces that drive 
private companies, academic institutions do tend to have a lot to learn 
from this sector.

A big problem is that most academics never ever experience any other 
working environment - they go to school then to university then remain 
in one for say a doctorate then join the academic staff. An academic 
institution and the academic personnel within it needs to be MANAGED, 
and efficiently, too. That involves a totally different skill set to 
the teaching of an academic discipline, yet the crazy assumption tends 
to be made that good academics will make good managers, which just 
isn't so.

Yes, I'm generalising here, and perhaps stereotyping, but I do think 
that I am doing so from an informed standpoint, and from that of very 
many years experience in professional human resources management in a 
pretty wide range of workplaces, as above.

On a lighter note, for (uk) academics lampooning the academic life, 
fine examples are Bradbury's 'The History Man' and Kingsley Amis's 
'Lucky Jim.

David
Cumbria UK
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Dillane <[log in to unmask]>
To: TSE <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 23:52
Subject: Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?

Hey Nancy, I’m suitably chastened but it wasn’t a generalization. It 
wasjust an observation of his experience. It was forty years ago and 
perhaps theremight have been alcohol involved in the conversation. It 
was nothing to me andnothing to him. In the warm glow of the booze I 
think we found everyone serious,caring  and admirable.  My experience 
of academic politics has not been as edifying asyours but then it has 
been on the scientific side of town where the money isbig and the game 
is more clearly about personal gain.  I grant you this is acomplex 
issue in the sense that without personal gain there is no 
furtherfunding for those not already well resourced. I won’t start on 
the more subtleimproprieties of ram feeding publications to journals 
and so on...  I have also lived through my wife blowing the whistle on 
a bentcolleague with the retraction of multiple papers from major 
journals going backa decade. The fight had to be taken outside the 
university to a national level –the improper political interference by 
the university  in layers from theprofessor up ( the oldest university 
in this country by the way ) was a pieceof work to behold. She survived 
the process one of her colleagues did not and now cleans banks at 
night.  I could go on but the original post was just a giggle and 
needsto lie down and die now I think  - and as you say such 
observations don’t giveyou reliable data.   Cheers Pete  From: T. S. 
Eliot Discussion forum.[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy 
Gish
Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 12:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?

 Well,not to me. I have taught in four universities, and I have had my 
fill ofuniversity politics. But it is simply not true in my experience 
that they aredifferent or worse than those of any other institutions. 
I'm sorry your friendhappened to have been in some difficult place. But 
these generalizations are,like all sweeping generalizations, just 
stereotypes. I find most of mycolleagues serious, caring, and 
admirable. There is no group that does notengage in political 
disagreements, even mean versions. But academics are notsome isolated 
and exceptional group of cranks, and at least they often disagreeover 
things that matter beyond their own personal gain.
 
Nancy
&gt;&gt;&gt;Jerome Walsh 06/06/12 12:57 AM &gt;&gt;&gt;Makeseminent 
sense to me!
 
Jerry
 
From: PeterDillane &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?


Yeah, I had a friend who hadbeen a coalminer in Wales in the fifties 
and made it to PhD at night and thenbecame an academic. He told me 
academia was more brutal than the coalminers’union ever was.
 
Cheers P
 
 From:T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On 
Behalf Of JeromeWalsh
Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2012 8:42 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?


 
Pete,

 

If youwant to see blood sports you should see what some scholars have 
said aboutideas I've published!  Error!Filename not specified.

 

Jerry

 

From: PeterDillane &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?

 
Oh dear just when this wasabout to take off too.  My mother told me 
that civility costs nothing butshe probably did not allow it might 
truncate blood sport.  If as issometimes said God sees every joke and 
laughs it might have been nice to haveteased this one a bit longer but 
I guess you Christians have to do the decentthing.

Pete ( the other one – noacademic qualification of consequence)

 

 From:T. S. Eliot Discussion forum. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On 
Behalf Of JeromeWalsh
Sent: Tuesday, 5 June 2012 11:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?



 

Peter,


 


Sorry forthe misconstrual.  I was being flippant, too.  Your question 
remindedme of the plaintive line in Mass, "but does God believe 
inme.......?," which ends hanging on an unresolved note.  I've 
alwaysfound that line particularly poignant.  I meant no implication 
ofplagiarism, just an acknowledgement of what I think is a worthwhile 
andthought-provoking way of rephrasing the topic.


 


And thereference to "Father" was simply to be transparent.  I 
can'tremember whether the list knows I'm a RC priest, and I wanted that 
identity tobe clear so that my wisecrack would be taken in the proper 
context.  Irealize now that my phrasing could come across as 
belligerent, and I apologizefor that; it was not intended to be so.


 


Jerry


 


From: PeterMontgomery &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?


 

Dear Father Walsh,


    Usually whensomeone tells me I've been listening, or reading or 
whatever too much,


I get the impression they areusually talking about themselves. In fact 
I did listen


to Bernsten's piece about 20oddyears ago. I don't really remember. I 
reasure you that I did


come up with the thought all bymy little own lonesome. I am capable of 
doing that from


time to time. In this case, myoriginal response to the question about 
Eliot/God was


not answered so I thought I wouldtry it the other way around. Obviously 
the same toying


around continued to apply, so whytake the discussion seriously at all? 
Given the mistakes


in the subsequent probing Ican't why one should bother.


     I have adeep reverence for and resonance with scripture, so I tend 
to have high regard


for scripture scholarship. It isa crucial matter, and an important 
resource for Eliot studies.


 I must confess to surpriseat your approach this time around. I guess 
my own flippant


conrtribution would be to say,poor old Bernstein. He was a victim of 
the NY school of nonsense.


 


Peter Montgomery (That's Dr.Montgomery to you.)


----- Original Message -----


From: JeromeWalsh


To: [log in to unmask]


Sent:Saturday, June 02, 2012 6:29 PM


Subject: Re: Whydid T.S. Eliot believe in God?


 


Peter,


 


You'vebeen listening to the Credo in Bernstein's Mass too much!


 


Besides,how do you know that God believes in any of us?


 


JerryWalsh (Yes, that's "Father Walsh" to you....)


 


From: PeterMontgomery &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?


 

Now that we've settled thatquestion, lets discuss why God believed in 
T.S. Eliot.


 


Any ideas?


 


P.


----- Original Message -----


From: John Grant


To: [log in to unmask]


Sent: Friday,June 01, 2012 7:40 PM


Subject: Re: Whydid T.S. Eliot believe in God?


 


Thanks,CR!



Sent from my iPad



On Jun 1, 2012, at 4:53 PM, Chokh Raj &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; wrote:


A fine elucidation, John, in Barry Spurr's article 


T.S. Eliot's extraordinary journey of faith


at 



http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/10/12/2972229.htm&nbsp;


 


Regards,


  CR


 


 



From: JohnAngell Grant &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: Why did T.S. Eliot believe in God?


 

//Why did Eliot choose Anglicanism over Roman Catholicism?//


 









 







 








 







 

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