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TSE  June 2011

TSE June 2011

Subject:

Re: One-eyed Riley

From:

Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

T. S. Eliot Discussion forum.

Date:

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 00:25:35 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (104 lines)

Joan Baez is also the source of the story that the "inspiration" of 
"When the Ship Comes In" was irritation at a hotel clerk who didn't 
recognize him and asked for ID. Could be. The song has one wonderful set 
of lines:

And the words that are used for to get the ship confused Will not be 
understood when they're spoken.

That second line is a stroke of genius- a lesser writer would have 
written "will not be believed."

Iraraitation at him has its ssource in his original audience trying to 
make him somethinghe never really pretended to be. (And several of Phil 
Ochs's songs are better politics.) But those lines I quoted!!!!!!!

Carrol


On 6/15/2011 3:32 PM, David Boyd wrote: Indeed, Dear Nancy,

Recall with very great pleasure having seen Dylan perform recently in 
Glasgow, and I do very much value his unique talent. But perhaps he had 
ambition on top of artistic / musical talent, that propelled him to 
where he is now. Joan Baez, et al though, do seem to think that his rise 
to superstardom was at their expense

regards

david



On 15 June 2011 19:51, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Dear David,

I don't doubt what you say.  I think it depends on one's view of 
intertextuality whether he "wrote" them or not.  Eliot borrowed, 
adapted, and simply quoted wholesale also, not always with quotation 
marks. Oddly, no one ever calls it plagiarism, though that is said 
about, for example, Hugh MacDiarmid, who no more simply transcribed than 
Eliot.  He did take some whole passages sometimes in late, "English" 
poems, but the question is what we mean by "wrote" as opposed to simply 
copied.  So we probably agree on what happened. Perhaps we could use the 
word "composed." Cheers, Nancy David Boyd 06/15/11 1:42 PM >>>

I must take issue with you, Nancy, re the assertion that ' wrote much or 
maybe all of his own work' - especially in his early days, he 
plagiarised other work considerably - traditional song tunes wholesale, 
but traditional song themes and structures and even lyrics, very often 
indeed. I know, because I was there at the time and had feet in both 
camps, but the borrowings and adaptations were very plain On 15 June 
2011 16:55, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

The person who has written most on this--and, indeed, made it a key 
issue--is David Chinitz in *T. S. Eliot and the Cultural Divide *(Chicago,
2003).  He only mentions "The One-Eyed Riley" once, but Eliot, it seems, 
had originally intended it as the title for what he then renamed *The 
Cocktail Party*.  Anyone interested in Eliot's use of pop culture can 
find Chinitz as a major resource. David does not say at that point where 
Eliot got the song, but Eliot loved music halls; it would not be unusual 
or surprising that he knew many of the the songs.

Nancy Hargrove has also done massive research, and, as David notes, she 
and her husband, Guy (a great singer) do presentations combining her 
research, images from the music hall posters and art, and his singing.  
They are fabulous.

On the Border Ballads, they were preserved in Appalachia because it was 
largely settled by Scots and Irish, who brought their culture with them. 
I would assume that the original tunes would have been more likely to be 
retained because of the isolation of much of the Appalachian population. 
They also are present in Nova Scotia, I would think, though that was 
mainly settled by Highlanders driven out by the Clearances, so I think 
the ballads would be less common than piping and Highland singing--which 
is quite different from Lowland Border ballads.  I am not sure on how 
much both are present there.

Actually, it is less Bob Dylan, who wrote much or maybe all of his own 
work (I am not an expert but he is now taught in universities), than 
Joan Baez and others in the 60s and early 70s who used the ballads 
themselves in the folk revival.  Some are their versions, but many 
singers aimed at singing them in their traditional versions, and 
Scottish and Irish groups like Silly Wizard and The Bothy Band and the 
Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem became immensely popular here.  So it was 
not, then, just "warmed over."

Nancy

Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> 06/15/11 11:32 AM >>> There is a god deal 
of scholarship on this going back to mid or early
20th-c. If I remember correctly the tunes for some Border Ballads were 
preserved only in the folk tradition of the lower Appalachian Mountains, 
carried there by 18th-c settlers in that region. Nancy may know far more 
aboaut this than I do.

Carrol



On 6/15/2011 3:37 AM, David Boyd wrote: Similarly, one cannot help be 
struck by how most north american folk songs and tunes are just 
warmed-over traditional British ones (and how Bpb Dylan's success is in 
no small part the result of his plagiarism of them)

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