Dear Carrol and Nancy,

I don't see animal sex as violent or disgusting. Now grasshopper sex  
is another story!

Did you know that rape is rare among gorillas, even though the males  
are bigger and stronger than the females?

Animal sex is pure and innocent, and often includes lifetime mating  
and mutual child care.

I recall a Bunuel film in which dogs were mating outside a convent.  
The nuns were horrified and ran out and poured cold water on them,  
which caused the audience to collectively groan in disapproval. Bunuel  
was famously anti-clerical.

I think though that Eliot's attitude was closer to that of the nuns  
than to Bunuel.

Diana

Sent from my iPod

On May 12, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Nancy Gish <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Dear Carrol,
>
> It was, though, Eliot who said that without a spiritual meaning sex  
> was no more than the coupling of animals.  He didn't, one might  
> note, know much about sex or passionate sexual experience--unless  
> maybe long after with Valerie.  All those pontifications came from  
> someone who was still a virgin at 26,  married suddenly, had a  
> horrific experience of sex, and then took up celibacy.
>
> So that he called it animals only tells us how he saw it, but it did  
> come from him.
>
> Nancy
>
> >>> Carrol Cox <[log in to unmask]> 05/12/10 10:51 AM >>>
> Diana Manister wrote:
> >
> > Dear Nancy,
> >
> > The typist and young man seem to be portrayed as in an ongoing
> > relationship. Eliot it seems to me is condemning the perfunctory
> > nature of their sexual relation. She regards it as obligatory. She  
> has
> > no dream of love. By creating these specific characters to make his
> > point Eliot indicates that he sees lower class people as  
> animalistic.
>
> Perhaps Eliot regarded the lower classes as animalistic, but this
> episode certainly isn't evidence. It is precisely what some would call
> "animalistic sexual passion" which is lacking from the pair. Their
> problem then would be that they are not animalistic enough.
>
> That is absurd, but so is your suggestion. Keep animalistic out of it
> one way or the other.
>
> Also, this construal does not contradict Nancy's suggestion that the
> young man commits Date Rape.
>
> And finally, it seems odd to speak of Eliot "making a point" here.
> Point-making seems precisely what is carefully kept out of the poem.
>
> Carrol